Wayland’s Words

Hello to All,

Jody Dewey wrote:

> how about running an 8 volt battery AND a 6 volt in series for your aux
> system? Then you could have 14 volts.

Mark Grasser wrote:

> I do recall, now that you mention it, that there are 14 volt batteries (7 cells) available for the >hot rod drag boys that run the 1/4 mile without an alternator. This is a perfect option for you >guys that don’t want to do a DC to DC.

No, it’s still not a ‘perfect’ solution. I know, been there, done that already. Way, way back in 1980 when I first put Blue Meanie on the road as an electric conversion, it took me about two months of miserable nighttime driving with yellow, dimming headlights, to figure out that using an unassisted 12V battery sucked. I didn’t know about DC-DC converters, and they were certainly not readily available back in the stone early 80’s. I studied available small deep cycle batteries, and found an 8 volt wet cell with the exact same ahr rating of the same brand’s 6 volt battery. I bought the pair and had myself a 14V supply to ’sort of’ mimic a gas car’s 12V system with an alternator running and providing 14.2 volts of system power. Yes, the car suddenly had bright headlights and all other 12V items ’sort of’ ran as intended. The problem though, was I was now packing about 70 lbs. of batteries just to have an ‘OK’ 12V system, and, I had to come up with a custom charger to replenish the 14V battery.

More importantly though, is this 14V supply was always in a declining balance, whereas I would start off with bright lights, but each time I switched on other 12V items, you could see the headlights react and dim accordingly as each 12V item was turned on, such as the heater fan on high, or stepping on the brakes, or turning on the rear window defogger, or cranking up the sound system…..each additional current draw would sag-down the 14V battery lower and lower. In addition, after so many minutes of driving, as the battery was depleted, the voltage would continue to fall. After a half hour of driving, the headlights were pretty dismal again.

This type of nighttime driving is unacceptable to me. I want the lights to be bright from start to finish, the stereo to always have the power to please, the wipers to always work as they should…I could go on. For me, a properly set up DC-DC that supplies a regulated and constant 14+ volts (and drops back to a 13.1V float when the vehicle is parked) is the only acceptable solution for an EV’s 12V system.

See Ya…….John Wayland

Hello to All,

I want to publicly thank Rod Wilde for all his dedication and hard work serving as NEDRA president all these years. His energy and drive is something that is needed in a president, and losing him in that position is a BIG loss for our sport.

Rod and I were two of the the founding EVers that dreamed up the idea of NEDRA, and when I was the original president he served with me as Vice President. It’s funny, because at one time he and I were staunch competitors who really didn’t want to like each other It all started back in ‘94…..man, I’m sounding like an old geezer!

For nearly 5 months now, Rod has been trying to get new rules and new voltage divisions past for the good of all EV drag racers. He set up a rules committee, and I was asked to be part of that committee. Quite frankly, many of the proposed rule changes adversely affected my own EV, but I voted for them because I could see they would make electric drag racing safer, open new areas for innovation, make it possible for new world records to be set, and in general, improve the sport. Rod and all of us on the rules committee wanted to have everything done before the turn of the year so that, in particular, the competitors at the first NEDRA EVent in 2006, Battery Beach Burnout, could have a shot at setting new records in the new classes and divisions. Rod was ‘very’ active throughout the process, and when things got bogged down, he would inject his energy and push things back into gear. He demonstrated strong leadership through the whole ordeal.

We’ve lost Rod as president now, but he’s still an active NEDRA member, so we’ll still be hearing a lot from him….thank goodness for that! Thank you, my friend Rod Wilde!

See Ya…….John Wayland

PS: Ken Trough has a synopses of the recent turmoil within NEDRA at:

Hello to All,

mike golub wrote:

> OK, but why do I need to charge my accessory battery
> (w/ a DC-DC convertor) when I’m waiting for a traffic
> light?

So your headlights don’t drop by as much as 3 volts (from 14.5V down to a sagged 12V battery at 11.5V) and go yellow and dull, so your wipers won’t slow down and chatter as they struggle to sweep your windshield free of water and or snow, so your heater-defroster blower won’t slow down and can continue to circulate ample amounts of air, so your electric element rear window defogger will keep the window heated properly, so the turn signals can continue to snap on and off smartly, etc., etc.

Regular gas cars with alternators already suffer from this effect, though not as severely because unlike an electric motor that stops turning when the vehicle stops moving, the gas car’s infernal combustion engine has to idle (and waste fuel while it continues to pollute the air), and so keeps the alternator spinning. Still, with the ICE spinning slowly at idle, the now slower revving alternator can’t keep the system at 14.5V anymore, and as the system sags to 13.2V or so, the lights still dim down, and the wipers still slow down, etc., etc.

With an EV, you can have a superior 12V system by using a DC-DC converter that is unaffected by motor rpm and always keeps the lights bright, the wipers moving swiftly, the air movement constant…..or, you can use the alternator off the rear shaft of the electric motor and have a miserable 12V system that uses more power and provides an up and down 12V system that’s inferior to the already poor system of a gas car

For me, any chance to make an EV out-perform a gas car, is always the way to go.

See Ya…….John Wayland

Hello to All,

As a founding NEDRA member and current active member, I’m very excited to see the EV drag racing scene expanding. Good luck to everyone at the first ever ‘Battery Beach Burnout’. Be safe, smoke those tires, and above all else, have fun!!

See Ya……John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

“Rubber ought to be laid electrically” (Dale Glubretch)
“My EV would be zero emissions, if my tires would stop smoking” (Otmar Ebenhoech)

Matthew D. Graham wrote:

> the car ran a 13.607 at 98.39 mph!

I love it when my EV predictions come true! How awesome is this? I told Matt in Redmond at our Hi Torque’n burger fest, that with taller drag radials and the LSD his car would run mid 13’s right out of the box.

I’ve predicted low 13’s - high 12’s with exercised and heated batteries at this weekend’s Battery Beach Burnout races for Matt…still standing by this. Get those Exides heated up by repeated runs and fast recharges, and when they’ve hit 120 degrees or so, look for the 100 mph barrier to be blasted through and 12.8 - 13.1 type ETs! I’ll take a stab and predict a 13.2 @ 101 mph will be the run that gets Matt into the 100 mph club!

It’s so exciting watching Matt and his car raising the bar…and yes, I’m watching my rear view mirror for a sinister black Nissan!

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

I just couldn’t resist sharing the moment…right now, 3:35 pm west coast time, at the DragTimes.com website, the vote count number for White Zombie is at 1972, so the entire line reads ‘1972 Datsun 1200 Electric’…exactly correct as both my electric Datsun 1200s are in fact, 1972 models!

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

It’s early AM here in Portland, 5-something, as I prepare to head over snow covered Mt. Hood this morning for two days of forklift wrenching in central Oregon’s Bend area. Hopefully, I’ll be able to catch Matt Graham for lunch, as I hear he’s visiting the area through today….Matt, lost your phone number, please connect with Jim Husted and I’ll check in around 10:00 this morning? It would be fun to have an EVer’s late lunch, the three of us, say 1:00-ish? Maybe we can get Bend-ite Doug Weathers to meet up with us, too.

The point of this post, is the excitement over seeing an electric car poised to hit #10 in the run for the February featured TimeSlip spot at Dragtimes.com! How cool is all this? I’ve got lots of friends voting each day, so thanks all of you. Don’t forget to vote for Matt’s 240SX and Rod’s RX7, too….I just did!

See Ya……John Wayland

For lunch plans contact Jim H. at Hi Torque Electric, 541-458-6140

Hello to All,

Wow, the power of the EVDL continues to amaze me. Keep those votes coming. I just checked and White Zombie just displaced a 409 V8 power Hudson hotrod to take the #20 place in the top 100.

I got a nice email back from the site owner, Brooks. He’s pretty pumped about EVs. He’s going to list the car instead of ‘White Zombie Datsun 1200′, as ‘Electric Datsun 1200′ when it inevitably hits the top 15 and is then held on the opening page all month. He’s doing this, to where I don’t have to send in an edit and shut the page down for another 24 hours…cool.

Everyone who visits this site, now open for 6 years by the way, will see the word ‘Electric’ associated with a fast machine…this helps the EV cause, big time, as witnessed by the impact it’s already had with these two comments posted at the Zombie’s Timeslip page:

**

(Richard in Corvallis)
No way John! Are you and Tim really running that fast? Simply amazing. This is enough to get me to change careers!!

————————————————————————

(Dave Davidson)
Looks like this proves that electric cars don’t have to be slow. If a person can do this with an old Datsun, why can’t the automakers make a fast electric car we can buy?

See Ya…..John Wayland

Happy New Year to All,

John Wayland wrote:

>You can go directly to the top 100 page here, then click on the one for White Zombie, this morning now with 152 votes and at # 49 in the top 100:

> http://www.dragtimes.com/top50.php

>Keep those votes coming! Those who voted yesterday can vote again today. Let’s send the >performance gas car crowd a message that EVs can be fun and exciting.

White Zombie is now up to 212 votes and is now #32 of the top 100 cars!

Being that it’s the end of December, and with the start of this voting thing just a few days ago, there’s no hope for an electric car being the featured car of the month for January, of course. I’ve exchanged emails with the site owner, who informs me that the voting thing is cumulative, so where ever we leave off as January begins, more votes will continue to make the Zombie’s total rise and rise.

There are two goals to strive for to start off ‘06. The first shorter term goal, is to get the Zombie’s total more than 344, so that it can bump the 15th car off the opening page’s ‘Top Contenders for January’ section (assuming that car won’t start climbing any higher), only it will probably say ‘Top Contenders for February’ pretty soon. Getting the votes into the mid 300s will ensure that each time someone goes to this drag racing web page, they’ll see an electric car as a contender for the February spotlight! That should raise a few eyebrows! The site keeps the top 15 cars listed in the lower right corner of the opening page.

The second goal, is to get more than 1478 votes to overtake the current 2nd place car, that in theory, will be the top contender for February after the Corvette at the current count of 1969 votes is awarded the January spotlight. If we pushed the Zombie to 212 votes in just three days, it seems this is an achievable goal. If everyone who’s taken the time to vote so far, continues to vote each day in January, we could see 2000+ votes pretty easily.

What’s important here, is that once a car has been crowned the ‘Featured Drag Racing Timeslip for the Month of xxxx’, it stays immortalized and goes into the ‘Past Featured Drag Racing Timeslips’, archived and viewable here:

http://www.dragtimes.com/featured-drag-racing-timeslips.php

How cool is it, that an EV might be the featured car at a place like this? We need to continue this fun exercise to get another EV highlighted for the next month, and so on. With the combined membership of the EVDL, we ‘can’ make this happen, especially if list members call on their non EVer family and friends with on-line computers to vote every once in a while, too. I called my brother Roger, and as he and I were on the phone together, watched my computer screen as DragTimes.com counter for the ‘72 Datsun 1200 electric car changed from 211 to 212 as he hit the vote button!

Matt’s Nissan 240SX EV is a very exciting machine, and it’s a fresh face on the EV drag racing scene. I predict his dual 9 inch Zilla powered ride will hit a 13.3-13.4 at the Battery Beach Burnout races in January, so don’t forget to throw votes towards Matt’s car, too.
I hear Rod Wilde’s Maniac Mazda’s low 11 second times are bing submitted as well. Heck, now that the Madman has the time slips in his hand for the Monster Garage Chevy (yes, he thought ahead and absconded with them), that car in all its outrageousness would really be cool to have as a featured EV, too.

The site owner has already mentioned, that if he gets enough EVs, he’ll start a special EV section…how cool is that?
We can have some real fun with this in the coming new year, and it goes a long way to show the world how united we EVers can be.

See Ya all next year….John Wayland

Thanks for the votes so far

Hello to All,

Interesting post, Dennis. The new rules NEDRA has been formulating for the SC class and another yet-to-be-announced class, will require a working reverse, so the Zombie’s going to have to have it soon. In addition, it’s a pain not having reverse. Currently, if I park the Zombie nose first into my backyard EV shop, I have to use the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor and a tow rope to pull it up and out my EV shop’s long, sloping driveway to get it out to the street. It’s also a bit embarrassing to have the track guys push your car backwards if you over-shoot the staging lights Finally, keeping the everyday streetability theme going makes having reverse a no-brainer. It’s no easy task though, when your electric motor draws 2000 amps, it’s all interconnected with beefy 4/0 cables, and losses through contactor tips are to be kept at a minimum.

KilowattA798@cs.com wrote:

> My conversion is coming along again at least 1-2k a large ge type motor direct to a 9+in. ford >air locker rear(no tranny). Reverse a must can go through a standard reversing contactor >arangement

I am working on several ideas for adding a simple reverse to White Zombie, but using a reversing contactor set is not one of the options for me. The reversing sets rely on spring pressure to keep the normal motor circuit connected, and use the magnetic pull of the contactor coils to engage reverse. Passing 2000 amps through spring pressure contact pads is nonsense, wasteful of power, and is a prescription for welded contacts. When I’m scratching and clawing for precious 10ths of a second, adding a reversing contactor set that ‘will’ detract from the 2000 amp motor loop circuit, is out of the question.

> …or, Can I use a small starter motor through a ring gear setup on my ge drive motor? This >setup could be made very easy,only adding 9 lbs.

>Dennis Berube

I’m thinking of a belt drive idea that would use a pulley mounted to the Ford nine inch’s input flange and a light weight 12V DC motor with a de-clutching drive pulley at the motor shaft. This setup would protect the reversing motor from being force-revved at super high rpm, but the pulley of the motor clutch would still be spinning at ~21,000 rpm due to the ~ 3:1 ratio needed!

A gear-on-gear thing, where the reversing motor is pulled into a larger gear mounted to the Ford nine inch’s input flange, via a strong solenoid or by simply using a starter motor, is another idea I have, very similar to your ring gear on the electric motor idea. This last version has the advantage in that when not in reverse, the 12V drive motor and its drive gear, are not forced to spin at all.

Dennis, your ‘other idea’ you didn’t mention, the super cool idea of using the flyback diodes of the Zilla controller and a 12V battery to turn the drive motors into a shunt wound that reverses direction can work, but man, 700-800 amps from the little 12V, 16 ahr Hawker Genesis would drain it pretty fast, and the extra contactor and multiple BIG cables isn’t something I want to add to the now sano looking under-hood area. I could, add an extra 24 lb. Hawker Aerobattery and dedicate it to this use, and 700-800 amps from it would be no big deal, but along with the big cabling, large contactor, and battery bracketry, this would add 40 lbs. to my EV….not good for racing.

Hey list folks, any creative but light weight reverse ideas for a high powered direct drive drag - street car?

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

It just keeps getting better! If you go to the DragTimes.com home page, then at the top, click on the ‘videos’ link, it takes you to a page with pictures of featured drag car videos. White Zombie’s photo and a link for a wheel lifting video, is currently right at the top. Thanks to Brook (I assume he’s the site owner) for doing this, looks like he’s pretty interested in EVs!

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

If you peruse White Zombie’s stat page, the page where folks have been going to vote, click on the section ‘track’ for a link to Portland International Raceway, and it takes you to that page of vehicles with listed time slips from the track. There’s a quick Toyota MR2 at the top with a 12.029, followed by White Zombie with its 12.151, so it makes an electric car look pretty good being so high up on this list. More importantly, right ‘under’ White Zombie (read that ‘not as quick’) is a 2004 Corvette Z06 at 12.734….really puts an exclamation mark on electrics!

This is fun. Wait till Rod Wilde’s 11 second RX7 shows up on the site today!

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Rod Hower wrote:

> You can vote once per day, so I voted again today and
> also voted at my friends computer.
> Rod

Thanks everyone for voting, last count it was up to 123 votes, and an electric car is # 57 of the top 100 favorite time slips! Let’s do it again tomorrow and build it up higher. Tell your friends with computers, too.

I think we’ve gotten the attention of those who run the site, as I got a nice email from Brooks, telling me he had put up links to a Zombie video and the Plasma Boy racing site…cool!

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

OK, I just got off the phone with a slightly happier Madman. Before I go on, I need to correct an omission. Along with Rich and Milwaukee Power Tool’s John, our own Shawn Lawless was also part of this latest ordeal….sorry for leaving you out, Shawn, but it’s all Rudman’s fault…he didn’t tell me you were there, too.

OK, here’s the scoop. They got 5 runs in. The first run was a bust, as all four of the 250 amp circuit breakers let go! The team did a quadruple bypass around the breakers, and the car was ready to run again. 2nd run….the tranny slipped out of gear 3rd and 4th runs had severe traction problems, this, on a very sticky track! The 5th run was the best, and even after burning both rear tires for 200 feet, the 4700 lb. beast ran a strong 14.53 @ 93 mph! The LiIon cordless tool batteries rocked, giving the best time after 5 runs without a single recharge! The 426 Hemi? Sadly it ran a 13.5 and beat the EV

I’m sure Shawn and Madman will give a much better, more informed report, but the guys wanted me to post something for everyone right away.

Would’ve been fun to sneak onto the track with a certain little white Datsun I know of…spank, spank Hemi

See Ya….John ‘Monster Garage rejectee’ Wayland

Hello to All,

I’ve submitted the 1/4 mile specs for White Zombie to the following site:

http://www.dragtimes.com/

At this opening page, under the section ‘Recent Drag Racing 1/4 Mile Times’, you’ll see White Zombie boldly listed as an electric car..it’s a clickable link. Upon clicking the link, you’ll see the spec page for White Zombie. It’s down-right funny when you peruse the stats page, as there are mostly ‘none’ lists for all the usual stuff they expect you to have in a drag car….Pistons (none)…. Sparkplugs (none)….Camshaft (none)….Transmission (none)….you get the idea, great fun!

I goofed and sent a very low rez thumbnail off a video clip, as the feature photo, and it looks tacky. If any list members have a good photo of WZ they’d like to see there instead, send it to me, and I’ll pick my favorite of what i receive and resend it to the site. You can vote for the car for it to be a featured car at the opening page, so let’s stack the deck to get an electric car put up as the featured car…that should get the gasser dude’s attention! Matt’s terrific twin motor 240SX is also at this site, so votes for his car would be great, too.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

This past Sunday, Tim and I took my two Datsun 1200 EVs to a fun car show hosted by the ‘Inliners International’ car club. This club is all about classic American iron powered by straight four, six, and eight cylinder engines. They ‘do’ allow the rare Ford flat head V8s as an exception, but other than this variance all the vehicles have the straight inline type engine, the majority of which are six cylinder. The Winter Car show was held at Mt. Hood Community College in Gresham, Oregon, just east of Portland, inside the school’s well equipped automotive shop.

My buddy from work, Rick Glover, the guy with the bright yellow ‘53 Chevy with a built straight six, had asked if I could bring my cars to this show month’s ago. He had brought the idea up to his car club, explaining to them that the electric motors in my cars were in effect, an inline engine. Evidently, the club agreed, and we were welcomed with open arms.

Tim and I got together the day before on Saturday to clean up and detail both cars so they would be sparkling and show-ready. Portland had been in a week-long battle with a cold front that had dipped the temps into the high 20’s, accompanied by strong Columbia Gorge east winds packing 45-50 mph strength, so we were glad to be inside my insulated and heated EV shop!

Sunday morning, the weather had gotten worse and we were under a Winter storm advisory with freezing rain and a good ‘ol Portland ice storm predicted for early Sunday evening. At 9:00 am, with both EVs fully charged, we headed due east right into the 50 mph 27 degree wind for the 10 mile trip to the campus. Meanie’s Optimas are approaching their 6th year of service and they’re not as strong as they once were. With the chilly outside temperature and fighting the strong headwind, I was concerned about making it to the college before I pulled the pack down too far. I did not, have that concern regarding White Zombie with it’s 100 lb. heavier, very stout pack of Hawker Aerobatteries….what ‘did’ concern me about this car, were the post racing season now-treadless drag radials on what might be icy streets on the way home after the show.

As Tim in the Zombie and I in Blue Meanie fought the wind, the twin now rare-sight-on-the-streets 1200s were getting a few looks as we’d pass the more mundane newer cars and giant SUVs. Meanie gets their attention with its pretty paint and clean appearance, White Zombie gets them with its racer’s stickers, fat rear tires, and that monster Ford 9 incher hanging down in back. Meanie’s Emeter was shaking its finger at me as the pack voltage dropped with the high currents pulled to cruise at 45 mph into a 50 mph wind, while Tim on his cell phone reported the Zombie’s pack was hanging in there just fine. We arrived close to the school at an Albertsons grocery store to pick up four cakes as our contribution to the pot luck food line for the show, then drove over to find the college autoshop. Geesh, it was c-c-c-cold! At one point, we got out of the Datsuns to find anyone who might know where to direct us to, both of us careful to hang onto the car doors to keep them from being ripped off and or bent and twisted by the strong bone-chilling winds.

We found our way into the well lit, warm autoshop, as the electric shop door closed behind us to seal out the wind and cold. Inside, we were part of the earliest arrivals as our EVs joined the other 10 or so vehicles already inside. This figure grew to 24 show vehicles by 10:00 or so. We were immediately greeted by friendly folks all anxious to get a look at our electric cars. At the same time, Tim and I were already hooking up the PFC chargers to the handy 40 amp welding sockets on the ‘wall of power’. As the two cars took their well deserved drink of electrons, it was show and tell time…..we had a great pre-show talk about all things EV.

Once the rest of the vehicles were all inside, polished, and positioned ‘just so’, Tim and I were able to check out all the cool cars and pickups. One of my favorites, was a ‘54 baby blue and cream Chevy sedan, close to flawless bodywork and paint, period-perfect interior, and lowered just right with deep American Racing Torque Thrust style mags and fat meats tucked under the fenders. To anyone on the street, surely this was a V8 hot rod…but under the hood, there was a beautifully detailed inline six fitted with a finned aluminum supercharger hanging off one side…real eye candy! Other cool rides were 30’s and 40’s six banger pickups, a pair of ‘36 Chevys, 30’s Fords, etc.

Though I have no hard evidence to prove it, White Zombie was probably the quickest car there. The poster sporting a photo of a smoky burnout and showing the 12.151 ET, really had everyone’s attention! So did my Mac computer playing this past summer’s 1/4 mile drag videos.

The food was awesome, the cars were awesome, and we were treated warmly by everyone…what a fun time we both had! However, at around 3:00 in the afternoon, pretty close to end of the event, it started to snow, then ice pellets were coming down…time to make a break for home. The trip home was ‘interesting’. Meanie did pretty good…its electric heater’s defroster came in real handy. Tim had his hands full with White Zombie with its wider, smoother tires. Things got a bit slippery on him several times. In the end, we made home without incident in the snow covered EVs, as we tucked them away inside the warm EV shop and got them fully charged back up in no time.

My first car back at the age of 16, was a ‘55 Chevy with a 235 straight six….built up, of course! Offenhouser intake with triple Stromberg one barrel carbs, three quarter race cam, headers, dual exhaust, 411 rear gears, and racing clutch, so this show all about six banger 30′ 40’s, and 50’s American machines, was especially fun for me.

Thanks to the gang at the Inliners International car club for a great time!

See Ya…..John Waylan

Hello to All,

Dennis has weighed in with:

> I must have had a large buildup of wax in my ears when Rich called me the week after the build.I thought he said 1471hp for 5 seconds,3 different times.If I too had the same horsepower #s as you I would have not predicted the 8 second #s.So my new prediction based on 633hp and 49oo lbs is a 12.24ET. Dennis Berube
>
>
Shawn Lawless says the pack can make 612 hp. 612 hp X .75 (assuming a best case of 75% motor efficiency) is 459 motor hp. Using the National Drivetrain calculator and plugging in 459 hp and 4900 lbs. vehicle weight (vehicle + 200 lb. driver), it predicts 12.25 @ 106.36 mph with a 7.8 second 1/8th mile. This ET is right in step with the new, refreshed, clean-eared Dennis Berube

This brings up a ‘very’ interesting comparo:

White Zombie: 12.151 @ 106.25 mph, 7.602 second 1/8th mile
Monster Garage Chevy: 12.25 @ 106.36 mph, 7.8 second 1/8th mile

A 2350 lb., 240 hp econo box vs a 4700 lb., 459 hp muscle car. Hmmm…..sounds like a possible showdown is brewing for May ‘06 at the Route 66 dragstrip in Illinois!

See Ya….John ‘Monster Garage Rejectee’ Wayland

Hello to All,

KilowattA798@cs.com wrote:

> With 2 zillas and the power to feed them from the lithium pack the 4700lb chevy with all the good suspension work should run 8.64 seconds in the qt.mi. at 157mph.I would not expect this in your 1st run out but after 5-8 passes. These #s come from the VERY predicitable Speedworld horsepower calc. on their site, but do not include my multipiler. With that multiplier in the equa.you will run 8.48 in the qt.mi. What a difference a little NITRO makes!!!! Dennis Berube
>
>

Whoa, Dennis’ ET predictions for the Monster Garage project Chevy sure seem ‘optimistic’! I respect Dennis, he’s a great competitor, a friend, and quite a character, too! He’s still the top dog as far as having the quickest electric ET, too. However, as excited I am about the rad one week conversion that friends Rudman and Lawless did, these guys, the ones that helped build the thing, both feel low to mid 13’s are more realistic, certainly not 12’s….it’s too heavy and there’s just not enough raw power to get the job done.

To investigate Dennis’ predictions, I’ve done some research of my own, and offer the findings as balance to what I feel is a wild prediction of performance I personally, don’t think is even close to being correct…no offense is intended. I have tried very hard to keep past predictions of performance as accurate as possible, whether it’s my own car, or someone else’s. As an example, when Matt Graham first contacted me more than a year ago about his proposed twin motor electric Nissan 240SX, I predicted it would run easy 14’s, and that it could get into the 13s’….he ran a 14.2 first time out. I’ve been pretty much right on the mark with my car all along, too.

OK, here we go…..I plugged in a known performance spec list from my own White Zombie, at three different 1/4 calculator sites. The first one, Simple Horsepower Calculator, is at:

http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm

This site has open boxes where you can enter data:

(1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
(2) 1/4 Mile ET
(3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed

I entered my accurate data of 12.151 for the ET and 106.25 for the mph, and my estimated data of 2550 lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb. driver) weight. Historically, I’ve been within 50 lbs. on my electric conversion weights. The calculator came up with this:

(1) Based on the ET, 281 hp
(2) Based on the mph, 239 hp

Since drag racing EVs typically have a lower top end speed as does a gasser running the same ET, I tend to lean toward the mph based hp levels.

The second site, Horsepower Calculator, is at:

http://www.s-series.org/htm/calc/hpcalc.htm

This site has open boxes where you can enter data:

(1) Known 1/4 mile ET
(2) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
(3) 1/4 Mile MPH
(4) 60 ft. Time

Note that this site adds a box for the 60 ft. time, which I feel really improves the accuracy.

I entered the same accurate data of 12.151 for the ET, 106.25 for the mph, and added 1.59 for a 60 ft. time, plus the estimated data of 2550 lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb. driver) weight. The calculator came up with this:

(1) RWHP (rear wheel horsepower) from entered ET of 280.93 hp
(2) RWHP from MPH of 238.71 hp
(4) Break hp from ET of 337.116 hp
(5) Break hp from MPH of 286.452 hp

The third calculator site, National Driveline, is at:

http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com/calcs/dragcalc.html

This site has open boxes where you can enter data:

(1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
(2) Vehicle hp
(3) RPM through the finish line
(4) Tire diameter

I used the same 2550 lbs. vehicle weight, and since the 239 hp from the first site and the 238.71 hp that the second site were pretty much identical, I rounded it to 240 hp, 6900 rpm from our tach data and calculations using the rear end ratio and tire diameter, and 24 inches as the current diameter of the Goodyear Drag Radials (before we burned them down, these were actually 24.3 inch tires). The third performance calculator came up with this:

(1) 1/4 Mile ET of 12.23
(2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 106.52 mph
(3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 4.63
(4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7.79 seconds

This data is surprisingly accurate. Compare the results to what the car actually did:

Predicted ET of 12.23….actual ET of 12.151
Predicted top end speed of 106.52 mph….actual top end speed of 106.25 mph
Suggested ideal gear ratio of 4.63….actual gear ratio is 4:57
Predicted 1/8 mile ET of 7.79 seconds….actual ET of 7.602 mph

OK, now that I’ve demonstrated how accurate the three sites are with a known vehicle’s performance, let’s now use the first site, Simple Horsepower Calculator, the one that seems to have nailed my car’s hp pretty darn well, and see how Dennis’ predictions of 8.48 seconds and 157 mph come out:

Again, this site has open boxes where you can enter data:

(1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
(2) 1/4 Mile ET
(3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed

I entered the Chevy’s 4900 lb. estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb. driver) and Dennis’ 8.48 ET and the 157 mpg figures. The calculator came up with these outrageous results:

(1) Based on the ET, 1588 hp!!
(2) Based on the mph, 1480 hp!!

I’m told the Chevy’s incredible battery pack can deliver 3800 amps at around 170 volts, or a whopping 646 kw!
Now, though that’s a huge amount of delivered power, in the real world of DC motors at BIG amps, a best case scenario is figuring 75% efficiency, so for every hp generated (746 watts) the motors will actually suck 1000 watts….this comes in at 646 hp, tops.

OK Dennis, where do you come up with at the least, 1480 hp? Where do you get 157 mph? Where on earth, do you get 8.48 seconds?

At the National Drivetrain site, I entered the Chevy’s 4900 lb. estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb. driver) and the more realistic 646 hp figure, plus 5000 rpm and 26 inch tires. The calculator came up with these results:

(1) 1/4 Mile ET of 10.98
(2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 119.18 mph
(3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 3.25
(4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7 seconds

Note, that if I’m off on the rpm or the tire size, it still doesn’t change the ET or the MPH figures. Of course, a scorching 10.98 would make us all proud! However, an 11 second ET is a far cry from a predicted 8.48 seconds! Likewise, the 119 mph is a far cry from the predicted 157 mph! If the battery pack can’t actually deliver the full 3800 amps, or if at that level the voltage falls below 170, or if both are on the optimistic side of things, then the actual horsepower will be less. With 3600 amps from twin Zilla 1800 amp controllers and keeping the pack sag to 170 volts, it comes in at 612 kw, and the car would run an 11.17 @ 117 mph. Still killer, but approaching 3 seconds slower and a full 40 mph shy of Dennis’ predictions.

Dennis, care to correct me on any of this? Did you slip up with your figures, or were you merely using Neutrino logic and cold fusion calculations here?

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

Oh boy, another NEDRA race, this time in the Midwest!

Yes, 2006 will be a HUGE year for NEDRA and the sport of electric drag racing. I’ve been asked by the current NEDRA president, Rod Wilde, to take charge of setting up this year’s NEDRA nationals at PIR. I’m well known for my ‘arm twisting’ to get EVers to travel long distances to take part in the bigger electric EVents I’ve been involved with, so the warning is out to all you Midwest and East Coast guys….I’ll be contacting all of you as the new year unfolds!

And speaking of contacting….I received a nice email from John Emde concerning the 2006 High Voltage Nationals, the newest NEDRA EVent. The FVEAA (Fox Valley Electric Auto Association) and Route 66 Raceway have invited me to bring White Zombie to Illinois. The last time I was in the Chicagoland area, this great group of guys treated me like a king. I have fond memories of my time spent working on Bad Amplitude, working with the NetGain boys, and hanging out with the area EVs guys.

So here’s the deal…Tim Brehm, Jim Husted, and I are committed (or is that should be committed?)…the deadly trio will be heading to the Midwest in May, White Zombie in tow, and will race at the 2006 High Voltage Nationals! The way I figure it, if we demonstrate that we can travel longer distances for big EVents (I do have a history of doing this), then maybe we can rekindle NEDRA’s biggest EVent of the year, to be held here in Portland (instead of Woodburn) and get the hottest EVers from the other parts of the USA (and Canada) to come out west. There’s a lot of hot street EVs currently being built, plus some pretty radical racing machines including Father Time’s narrowed VW bug, so the Portland races should be packed with high powered EVs.

John Westlund wrote:

> Joliet, Illinois!?
>
>
> Hot damn! That’s a few hours drive from where I live, and I
> would gladly meet other list members and see(and perhaps
> ride in) the EVs others have built.
> I’ve never ridden in an electric car. I’d love to have that
> chance, just to get a feel for how they ride and so I know
> what to expect from a properly completed conversion.

I think I can take care of this problem for you….how ’bout taking a wheel lofting spin in White Zombie for your first EV ride? Can you wait that long? Tim’s gotten pretty good at steering the thing with the front tires off the ground…he’ll be happy to give you a ‘lift’

I’ve found the EVDL contributions from John Westlund to be the ones I look forward to reading, and I always rush to open his emails to see what he’s got to say. He’s given me hope that our newest and youngest are fully capable of carrying the EV flag. What better way to thank him, then to give a ride in the Zombie? Mr. Westlund, now you have even more reason to be at the Route 66 track!

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Hello to Matt and All,

First things first….Congrats! A 14.27 @ 95.06 mph on your first run??? Incredible!!!

Matthew D. Graham wrote:

> Just as I’m staging, though, I tell myself
> there’s plenty of time for me to lean over, type “p” and then “Q4″ to start
> the data stream. . . there! I did it! . . .just in time to look over and see
> the christmas tree light sitting on GREEN!…the 14.274 included a 1.053 second
> reaction time….It could have easily been a 13.5 run for its first time ever
> on the track….It’s all very encouraging, since I know there’s a solid second I can take off the >time, just by paying attention to the lights…

OK, the low 14 is impressive, so don’t take this wrong, but your reaction time has nothing to do with your ET. You could have sat at the green light for 4 seconds if you had wanted to and your ET would still have been a 14.27. Again, I’m psyched about your incredible low 14 second run, so I’m certainly not trying to tear down your accomplishment….to the contrary, I’m impressed at your ET.

The only time the reaction time matters, is if you’re bracket racing…then, it’s ‘everything’. In bracket racing, whoever gets across the finish line first, providing they haven’t ‘red lighted’ (take off before the green light) or ‘broke out’ (run a quicker ET than what they ‘dialed in’ at), wins. If you wasted too much time in a poor reaction time, then you’re not going to beat the other guy across the finish line. The timer doesn’t start unit your front tires break the light beam, thus the amount of time you take to get going, doesn’t affect your ET. Even in a heads up style drag race against someone in the lane next to you, you could have a poor start due to a long reaction time, have the other guy get across the finish line before you do, and still beat him, as long as your ET is less than his. Now, if you’re talking about a slow 60 ft. time vs a good 60 ft. time, then yes, that matters, and it very much, affects your ET.

Anyway….just wanted to clear this up for you.

Way to go!

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Lee Hart wrote:

> No, I’m not thinking of forklift batteries. I’d have something like
> eight 6v golf cart batteries in that 2′x2′x1′ pack. That’s 48v and 500
> lbs worth. Two such packs would work for a small car, or three for a
> pickup.

Yes, this would be great. You’d want to come up with a light but strong ‘box’ to replace the 1/4″ plate steel box that the industrial package comes in. Those steel cases probably add 100 lbs. to the package weight.

> Or, you could fill the 2′x2′x1′ box with Optimas, or lithiums, or the
> battery of your choice. Just arrange so it comes out to the same
> voltage, and include whatever battery management hardware you need, and
> the packs could be changed as needed.

Yup. In pickups where one doesn’t mind giving up some of the bed space, this approach would work well right now.

With some ingenuity, a pickup with a tilt bed could still use this setup and have a fully usable bed, though it would most likely have to be a direct drive affair to get rid of the drive line that’s right in the way. Once the drive line issue is gone, say with a rear motor/direct drive affair, then a flat rectangular shaped pack could drop right in, one under the bed fitting in ahead of the rear axle and just behind the cab between the frame rails, the other under the hood. With a small electric hoist like the ones offered at Harbor Freight, and with a hood that opened to near vertical and a bed that tilts the same way, the two packs could be pulled and replaced in 5 minutes per pack.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

> Mark Freidberg wrote:

>It seems to me these “modular battery packs” could enable EVs to
>really take hold in the mainstream.

Then, Lee Hart wrote:

> Sure; it’s done with electric forklifts all the time. The batteries are
> in big standardized packs that can be quickly swapped (with a forklift
> of course!

Yes, it’s done in the warehousing industry as a norm. Warehouses that run their lift trucks 24/7 ‘depend’ on battery swapping and have a battery room and gantry crane to do the job. It takes all of 5 minutes, from the moment the operator drives his tired forklift into the bay, until the time he’s rolling away with a freshly charged battery.

> The challenge is that when you convert a normal car, there is no place
> to put a normal quick-change forklift pack. They are in steel boxes
> about 1′ x 3′ x 2′ high, that weighs half a ton or more. Forklift packs
> are also usually 36-48v — lower than most people want.

Pallet jack industrial batteries are about the size Lee describes, are most always 24V, and weigh between 585-800 lbs. Stand-up rider type forklifts, like the ones you see at Costco and Winco stores, use 24V or 36V batteries that are larger at about 2′ x 3′ x 2.5′ and weigh 1800-2000 lbs. The typical electric sit-down forklift uses 24V, 36V, and 48V batteries that are about 2.5-3′ x 3′ x 2.5′ and weigh 2000-3500 lbs. The 24V battery is going away as used in sit-down type lift trucks, the 36V is now the most common, and the 48V is used in the larger, higher capacity trucks. Of course, with AC systems coming on line, 72V & 80V batteries are used as well, but these are not very common yet.

Forklift batteries are designed for relatively low currents that peak at around 500 amps and average in the 150-200 amp range. They actually want these batteries to remain heavy for ballast, so their 1/4 thick plate steel cases are perfect. The tubular type plates of a forklift battery are designed for deep discharges daily, and very long cycle life, at the expense of very low power density. For an on-road EV where weight is the enemy, a forklift battery would give low range, compared to the same weight in, say 6V golf car batteries. A forklift battery would also give substandard power performance. That said, you could pull a forklift battery down 80% every day, and have it last 5-7 years!

> A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a different configuration.
> Maybe something more like 2′ x 2′ x 1′ that weighs under 600 lbs and
> delivers 72v or more. Then you’d need to provide “hole” or other
> hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar could insert or remove
> the pack. You’d need to use 2 or more such packs to get higher voltages.

You’d need at least two of the 48V, 2600 lb. type batteries to get to 96V. A vehicle using two of these batteries would weigh 7000 lbs. at least, and at a safe max current of 500 amps, 45 kw or about 45 hp would be all you could wring out of them for accelerating a 3.5 ton vehicle…argghh!!! Once you got this monster up and rolling however, it’s range would be impressive. I suspect that on a flat long stretch of open highway at 55 mph, this beast of an EV would draw 200 amps continuously. These 48V, 2600 lb. batteries are rated at 1000 ahr @ C6, so they could easily deliver that 200 amps for 4 hours continuously without harming them at all. That’s 220 miles range….God help you though, if you ever have to accelerate out of another car’s way, or pull any kind of hill!

I suppose if one lived in Wyoming or eastern Idaho where long and lonely highways seem to stretch forever on the flat plains, a midsized pickup with a beefed up frame and suspension, fitted with twin 48V forklift batteries, might be just the ticket for your daily 100 mile commute Heck, if they had a crane at your work destination and a pair of industrial chargers on hand, and if you had the same setup at home, a 200+ mile commute would be quite feasible. Using the bed as the dual battery nesting area, you already have that ‘hole’ Lee mentions.

Back to reality….battery swapping would be practical with a compact 400 lb. LiIon battery that could be ejected and inserted like a fat CD in a big slot at the rear just under the trunk floor. With that kind of weight and size, a small metal dolly on rollers would be all one would need. On the other hand, using a 400 lb. advanced LiIon battery with 200 miles range per charge and a good fast charger, the need to swap out batteries would be minimized.

See Ya……John Wayland

Happy Thanksgiving to All,

Paul G. wrote:

> On Nov 22, 2005, at 4:25 PM, STEVE CLUNN wrote:
>Here’s a bad boy idea that I don’t think has a name .
>Take a bank of motor capacitors , the type that can take ac . hook in series with a bridge >rectifier on the ac side . Your dc out put will be anywhere for 1v to 2 times the ac peak but >your current will be proporsional to how many capacitors you use .

>Rich or John will know the slang term for that type of charger. Ammo box charger comes to >my mind. John has (or had) one in his garage.

> Paul

Nope, the Ammo Box charger is the monster that Madman Rudman came up with, that’s essentially a large variac and other goodies stuffed inside an ammunitions box (Ammo Box) with the adjuster shaft sticking out the side of the box with a clamped-on ViseGrip as a handle! This is the charger Rudman used the night we were re-charging Red Beastie years ago after its famous 440 mile round trip from Portland to Seattle and back, at Father Time’s house. We had driven the 120V truck, jammed full with 40, T-105 6V batteries, from Pacific NW EVer Pat Sweeney’s house in Tenino, WA (105 miles north of Portland and the in-between charging station) up to Seattle, then without a re-charge, entered the truck in a parade and ran it another hour or so that way, then again without a re-charge, drove it uphill miles away to the city of Burien, WA to Father Time’s place. This was more than 120 miles of driving, most all of it freeway and the last 15 miles or so uphill. Rudman was dimming the street lights and overloading the pole mounted transformer trying to feed the Beastie!

You’re talking about the ‘Ugly Box’. Yeah, got one right here in my EV shop. It’s called the ‘Ugly Box’ capacitor charger….said name derived from the ‘ugly box’ that the charger’s guts were first stuffed into. Pat Sweeney made the first one for me, that along with the banks of motor-run type oil filled caps, also had a microprocessor brain that would control everything. This was all pre PFC Manzanita Micro stuff.

One eventful day, a high current conductor got blown away from a high current diode that let go with a bi BANG and lots of smoke, that sent the wire arching over and landing right onto the micro’s circuit board…POOF….bye bye micro! After that, it was merely a big dumb charger with no auto-shut-off, no variable amps-out feature.

Later on, I made a new aluminum housing for the ugly box cap. charger with Marko at the metal shop and redesigned the charger a bit differently, with solid state relays that could be switched on with a couple of toggle switches. This charger is connected to the 240 vac
line. With both toggles off, it makes about 9 amps into a 156V pack…one toggle on and it bumps up to about 17 amps…both toggles on and it cranks out about 22 amps. I could add more caps. if I wanted to to get even higher current output. The Ugly Box is cool, because as long as you’re being careful and sit there and babysit it, you can charge just about any battery or battery pack up to around 288 volts (it tops out at around 350 vdc as connected to a 288V pack). I often use it to fast charge the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor’s 36V pack of 6 Exide Orbitals (series/parallel buddied pair pack), and it sends about 31 amps into it. It would be bad Ju Ju though, to forget about it being hooked up to the tractor

I’ve recently sold my beloved PFC30, the Zombie’s EV shop charger (George Tylinski has been very generous and has made his PFC50 available for super fast track side charging), and am awaiting my new and brawny PFC75. The PFC30 was also used to do other charging duties around my EV shop, and I miss it already I’ve still got my hot rodded PFC20 mounted in Blue Meanie, but it’s all set up for that car’s 156V pack. The Ugly Box has been put back in service keeping banks of new Orbitals freshened up.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

The hybrid bashers, most who have not even owned or driven one, need to be corrected.

Phil Marino wrote:

> Nick -
> That is EPA mileage ” testing” - they don’t actually drive the cars on the road. EPA testing is >way off for most cars, and especially for hybrids.

Oh great…here we go again with this. Did you not read my post about this? Most ‘everyone’ I know who owns hybrids, get better mpg, not less, than the EPA ratings. My Honda was rated at 70 mpg. Go to Mike Chancey’s EV Photo Album to see my Insight’s dash reading of 92.5 mpg after 53 miles of driving! Friend Geoff Shepherd regularly gets 65-70 mpg in his ‘05 Prius. Where’s the Echo that can even get close to this? Got some numbers for me? Take your Echo out, the car you think will hit within 17% of a hybrid, and do highway speeds of 55-65 mph up and over mild hills. Do this for 100 miles, and report back to us those 65+ mpg ratings you’ll get.

> In Consumer Reports magazine ( October 05 issue) they show mileage test results ( actual driving results) for different cars, including - for mixed city and highway driving -
>
> Prius : 44 mpg overall ( 11 mpg less than EPA estimate)
> Echo : 38 mpg overall ( 2 MPG better than EPA estimate)

You’re using Consumer Reports magazine as a quality source? This discussion is getting more ridiculous. Consumer Reports has zero credibility in the automotive world….zero. They have enough trouble driving a toaster! Looks like they also have trouble driving a hybrid, too.

> So, according to actual testing, the Prius gets 16 % better fuel mileage then the Echo.

No, according to the idiots at Consumer Reports.

>This almost exactly matches the numbers claimed by me and Joel in the previous couple of >posts ( 17%) based on real driving experience from people on this list….after, just with some >hand-waving, arbitrarily mileage (from previous post)

I guess you just waved your hand and ignored my real driving experience as a person on this list? Can your Metros and Echos match an Insight’s 85 mpg? Can they match the new gen Prius owners that can easily get 60+ mpg?

> Consumer reports is a non-profit organization that accepts no advertising - I have faith in >their testing results - they have no ax to grind.

Oh come on, wake up to these guys! No ax to grind? Maybe you’re too young to remember their highly charged political bashing, their goofy tests that were proved wrong by real scientists, and their poor choices in cars. They picked the Pinto over a Datsun 510, you know, the Pinto that blew up when bumped a little too hard from behind, the car that had one of the poorest crash ratings of any car ever built, the car that accelerated 3 seconds slower to 60 than the Datsun that has a smaller motor! Where are all the Pintos now?….oh that’s right, they all fell apart and are rusting heaps in scrap yards. Those 510’s Consumer Reports rated lower than the Pinto? They’re collectible and highly prized sedans that are still on the road, with huge groups of clubs based on the car. Consumer Reports really hit that one on the head, didn’t they?

In 2000, the year I bought my Insight, if memory serves me correctly, Consumer Reports rated the Insight at 54 mpg! Go to Insight Central, if you don’t believe me, and check to see the average mpg owners are getting….none of this goofy Consumer Reports crap, these are real people who actually know something about the car.

>They also show ( in another chart in the same article) that the EPA prediction for the Honda >Civic Hybrid is 48 MPG city , and their actual testing showed 26 MP city . In this case the >EPA prediction is 85% higher than the actual value.

My wife and I test drove a new Hybrid Civic when they first came out, and over 30+ miles of in town city driving, averaged 45 mpg. Yes, that is a little lower than the EPA ratings, but I wasn’t driving it easy at all, and there were three people in the car. I ran numerous full throttle acceleration tests, purposefully pulled Portland’s steep hills, and ran the AC on and off. We got more than double what those morons at Consumer Reports got. How does any thinking person get 26 mpg in a Honda Civic Hybrid? What did they do, leave the E brake on? The fact that Consumer Reports only got 26 mpg should make you question their competency. Do you blindly accept that a Honda Civic Hybrid only gets 26 mpg in the city? Did you ‘really’ accept this as fact?

> One of the reason for the current hybrid popularity is the inflated EPA numbers for them.

No, the reason is satisfied owners who get even better mpg numbers than the EPA said the car would, and, because people are interested in driving cleaner machines.

> EPA needs to clean up their act.

Yeah, I agree. they should come clean and go public with the fact that they were too low in their mileage numbers for the Honda Insight, because 70 mpg is way too low compared to what the car actually returns.

Phil and Joel…how many friends do you have that actually own a hybrid? Ever spent time in one yourself? Let’s add some credibility to this discussion and qualify ourselves. I ‘have’ driven the Echo, two times to be exact, and have spent more time behind the wheel of a Metro than I want to remember. How many Insights have you guys spent time with? Prius? Honda Civic Hybrid? Come on, fess up

Hey, Phil and Joel, let’s have some fun. Why don’t the two of you pile into that hybrid-matching Echo, and take me on. Want to compare it to my Insight? I’ll take a handicap and run the AC/defroster at full tilt, and run with two passengers and full luggage. You guys can cheat and leave the AC off and run with an empty cargo area. We’ll hit the Oregon mountain passes, do some freeway driving, and to make it more interesting, let’s make the deal that we have to travel at least 700 miles on a single tank of gas. My Insight with it’s 10.6 gallon tank will definitely have gas left over after 700 miles. It would be fun acclerating up the steep inclines as the electric motor jams in the torque to effortlessly propel my Insight up the grades, knowing you guys were behind me struggling to keep up were wringing that unassisted gas motor out, revving it to near redline (and sucking gas). It also, would be fun knowing that as I went down the other side of said mountain slope, regenned, and stuffed power into my hybrid’s battery pack, that you guys were instead, smoking the brake shoes and pads as you threw away power heating up your regen-less friction brakes

Ready for this comparo? What’s that you say….your Echo will run out of gas at the 400-450 mile marker?

See Ya….John Wayland

Satisfied hybrid owner getting way higher mpg than the EPA ratings

Hello to Joel and All,

Joel Shellman wrote:

>printed on the window sticker. A Prius that has an EPA rating of
>close to 60 mpg in city driving typically gets closer to 40 mpg,
>Personally I get 48 MPG at the *pump* with my 2002 Prius and I
> I have to admit that I find it very funny that this hybrid thing is
> supposed to help fuel economy so much…

It ‘does’ help, tremendously. The only funny part for me, is how you’ve missed the obvious HUGE increase in not only the mpg, but also the bigger picture of a HUGE increase in cleanliness in operation as in substantially lower harmful emmisions, the real purpose of hybrids…high mpg is secondary to this.

> I got 41 mpg with my 95 geo metro and about the same with my 2000
> toyota echo. And all they can do is get to 48 mpg with a prius? What’s
> the point?

First, a ‘95 Geo Metro is a tin can compared to the much more substantial and safer Prius…no contest at all here. That alone, should leave you impressed. The larger, heavier, and ‘quantum leap safer’ Prius has vastly more passenger room and cargo space and yet bests the real life mpg of the minimalist Metro by a whopping 17%! It would be impressive to me, if it the larger, safer, roomier, and cleaner running Prius only ‘matched’ the Metro’s mpg.

> Okay, maybe the prius is a bigger or fancier car than those–but it
> just seems pretty funny that there wasn’t any significant improvement

No significant improvement???? Let’s keep examining this. The above would be enough for most anyone else, but for Joel it seems it has to be even more impressive, so here goes. How about emissions? The ‘95 Geo Metro is downright filthy when it comes to emmisions. Clean it’s emmisions up to match the Prius (without using that unimpressive hybrid technology), and the Metro’s mpg would plummet closer to maybe 35 mpg. Now, we’ve got a tiny and cramped Metro getting just 35 mpg vs the roomy and comfy Prius still doing 48 mpg….starting to get it yet? No? Let’s keep going…..the Metro would probably score the lowest possible impact protection, at a 1 star rating, compared to the Prius which I believe is at 4 stars. Let’s now add in the mandatory structural reinforcements to the weak Metro to beef up the body structure, add the side impact beams, and add in the air bags. This extra weight would probably add 300 lbs. to the Metro and knock the mpg down to about 33 mpg….now it’s 33 mpg vs 48 for the cars having the same crash worthiness and clean emissions….got it yet? No? OK, here’s more to consider. The Prius can accelerate from 0-60 in 10 seconds, not blistering by today’s standards, but very reasonable and very impressive for a vehicle that pulls 48 mpg! How ’bout that Metro? It took nearly 3 more seconds with a 0-60 of 12.7 seconds….argghhh!
Hop up the Metro wheezer engine, or put in a bigger one to match the Prius (you ‘could’ simply add a torquey electric motor,…nah, that technology doesn’t work) to get the 0-60 down to 10 seconds to match the Prius…keep in mind, the engine still has to get high mph and run clean….and I bet the mpg would drop to 31 mpg….now it’s 31 vs 48 mpg!

> (~17% improvement from a “revolutionary” new technology is nothing).

Using all the above, which is very realistic, the difference between the two cars is a staggering 35% better mpg while still offering more interior space for everyone….that to me, is indeed, revolutionary!

The thing you need to consider with hybrids, is that they get better mpg than smaller less substantial cars, run way cleaner, and if this wasn’t enough, do so while being roomier and offering far better acceleration and hill climbing performance. You can’t just take a minimalist tiny car that runs dirty and accelerates like a slug and then ignore all these detractions as you compare its mpg to the new hybrids, because considering the sum qualities of the entire car, there simply is no comparison!

Along with Joel’s attitude towards hybrids, I’ve also heard this one…..you could get the same mileage without the electric stuff, because it’s only the gas engine that achieves the high mpg…rubbish! Without the help of the collected free energy from regen braking and the use of the energy being applied to an efficient electric motor with boat loads of bottom end torque, the hybrids platforms as gas only cars would not be accepted by the buying public, for they would have horrible acceleration, hill climbing, and top speed performance. The Prius can use a less torquey but cleaner burning Atkinson cycle gasoline engine, only because the missing torque is replaced with the electric motor’s low end muscle….thus, you can have higher mpg and lower emmisions while still preserving acceleration. Same goes for the Insight…it can utilize a lean burn gasoline engine to get stratospheric mph in the 80-90’s, ‘because’ it has an electric motor to replace missing torque.

I have to totally disagree with Joel’s laughing at the hybrids, while at the same time, it’s hard for me to not laugh at him for apparently, not getting it. By the way Joel, my Insight was rated at 70 mph highway, 61 city….it regularly gets 66 mpg city and 75-80 highway without doing anything special. Drive it more conservatively, and it gets 70+ in the city and 85-90+ on the highway! Friends of mine with the newest model Prius easily get 55-65 mpg, nowhere near 48 mpg.

See Ya……..John Wayland

Hello to All,

> It has already been done. “Gone Postal” www.suckamps.com runs all wheel drive. Two Zilla Z2ks, three motors, and four twelve inch wide Nitto extreme drag radials and weighs well over two tons and still boils all four tires. We still have traction problems to deal with now that we stopped breaking axles. I believe Shawn Lawless runs a four wheel drive dragster where all four wheels are in the rear and two in front.

And for the other point of view…..White Zombie is rear wheel drive and routinely trounces 400+ hp all wheel drive Eclipses and Subes off the line. Their 60 ft. times are in the 1.90-1.85 area, White Zombie has pulled 1.59, and typically is in the low 1.6 region!

The above said, so as to keep the record straight, I’m a fan of all wheel drive, as witnessed by the Wayland Family’s all wheel drive Sube Legacy wagon and Jeep 4 X 4 race car tow rig. The Sube spanks the Jeep in bad weather traction and capability, hands down.

In theory, all wheel drive ’should’ rule at the strip, but in practice, it’s still rear wheel drive that plants a car best off the line. I suppose that if no extra weight and drive train efficiency losses were added in the process, White Zombie might benefit from powering the front wheels if we could keep them on the ground

See Ya….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Roderick Wilde wrote:

>On another note, Monster Garage will be doing an EV episode. I have been contacted by them >as well as several other ampheads. It seems they may want performance.

Yeah, I’ve also been contacted. It would be great to have EVs presented in a positive light on a hotrodder’s show with a large audience. We’ll have to wait to see what the producer has in mind. So far, it appears they want a hi pro type EV build, so I’m all ears! I’m hoping that if they peruse the Maniac Mazda and Plasma Boy webpages, the concept of electric performance will hit them like a sledge hammer, right between the eyes!

See Ya….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

‘We didn’t blow things up, so you might have to’

Correction: I guess there was that little arcy-sparky thing at Woodburn
http://plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to Bill, Nancy, and All,

Bill & Nancy wrote:

> Hi,
> I was looking at dc to dc converters at http://www.powerstream.com/dc-72.htm for use in >my EV. They output 9 amps with a 10 amp peak and 124 watts. Would this be adequate power >to the 12 volt system with headlights in use for short distances, approx. 1 mile.

> Thanks,
> Bill

What kind of vehicle? Not knowing this, here’s a bit of general info:

Technically, no. The average car needs about 15-16 amps to run the ‘headlight circuit’. This includes the headlights, taillights, front park lights, side marker lights, and interior dash and switch illumination. This does not include the extra power drawn when you hit the brake pedal, which can be anywhere from 4-8 extra amps, depending on how many bulbs light up when you hit the brake pedal. Older vehicles like 60’s era cars and trucks and minimalist type vehicles will require less lighting power, say, 12 amps or so. At 9 amps continuous, this DC-DC will still not keep up even with such an older vehicle with its simpler light circuit.

On the other hand, 1 mile isn’t very far….you could even do it on just a 12V battery, though your headlights wouldn’t be all that bright as they’re used to running at 13.8 - 14.3V. Depending on the size of your unassisted 12V battery, the lights may sag the battery down to anywhere from 11.7V to as low as 11V for a smaller sized 12V battery. The headlights would make pretty poor light at just 11V.

Lastly, if the DC-DC you’re looking at is robust enough and can stand being held at an over-amped level, it’s 9 amps into a 12V battery being pulled at 15-16 amps, would certainly help things out. 16 amps minus 9 being put towards the effort, is only a 7 amp power draw. At this low current level, that the battery might only sag down from 12.8V to 12.4V or so.

The best solution, would be to use a more powerful DC-DC that can deliver all the power your EV’s 12V system might need.

See Ya…….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Lee Hart wrote:

> If your car is averaging 30 mpg….This 30 mpg may
> sound low, but is probably what the car actually gets on average. Most
> people accept the EPA figures which are always high

Lee, gottta call you on this. It’s not like you to make sweeping statements like this. EPA figures ‘always’ high?

My Honda Insight was EPA rated at 61 mpg city, 70 mpg highway. Forgetting ‘playing the hybrid game’ of trying to ultimately squeeze out the very best mpg from it by using certain techniques and by driving a little slower than everyone else (this will lead to atmospheric mpg numbers as high as 92.3 mpg), it consistently delivers in the mid to high 60’s in town, and an easy 70+ mph at 75 mph cruising on the freeway system. The only mod to this car in regards to improving mpg efficiency, is running its LRR tires at a higher 50 psi. That said, dropping the tire pressure lower to the factory psi specs results in mpg numbers right at or a bit higher than the EPA figures.

Just yesterday, my wife and I were out driving around here and there in the Insight. The car had logged 575 miles of nearly all city driving on this tank, and, I was accelerating hard on this day, enjoying the car. I checked the average mpg for those 575 miles and it reported 66.3 mpg. On a less than stellar road trip to Vancouver BC and back to Portland where we had to drive fast through cold temps and lots of heavy rain, using the AC in the defroster mode and pushing copious amounts of water (always lowers the mpg), we traveled more than 700 miles and still had nearly two gallons in our 10.6 gallon tank left over…the computer said we had averaged 71 + mpg (going from memory here), a figure accurately backed up by the amount of refill gallons, too. EPA said the car would get 70 mph.

Our trusty all wheel drive Subaru Legacy wagon is now 13 years old and still runs as new…doesn’t use a drop of oil between oil changes and with 135k on the clock, still passes DEQ with readings that barely move the gauges. It’s EPA ratings were 21 mpg city, 29 mpg highway. We get 21 mpg in town, and on road trips (these happen rarely now that we have the Insight to drive instead) the car gets between 28-31 mpg driving with the traffic flow…not cruising in the slow lane. Driving in snow when the all wheel drive digs in and that wonderful flat four works a little harder, yes, it gets about 18 in the city, but that’s the only deviation from the EPA numbers we’ve seen.

I know, I know, many vehicles don’t get their EPA figures, but to say EPA figures are always high, is simply not true.

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Neon John wrote:

> IMHO, two of the ugliest cars ever made were the Honda EV1/Insight

John, gotta take a jab at you on this A Honda EV1? Perhaps you meant the GM EV1?

And now for the other point of view…. for me, my Honda Insight is one of the most beautiful cars I’ve ever owned. It’s super areo shape cheats the wind, and the flowing lines that help make it do so, are sensuous. From it’s sleek tapered nose to it trim quarter panels with wind-cheating skirts, to its lowered-from-the-factory stance, the aluminum bodied tear drop shaped Insight is gorgeous to my eyes, and to the eyes of others as well.

I’ve said this before on this list, but it’s worth repeating…renown car photographer John Skalicky put my car on the cover of Car Audio and Electronics magazine back in Oct. of ‘01. This is a man who’s photographed Ferraris, classic American iron, concept cars….you name it. He told me the Insight was the most beautiful car he’s ever spent a full day photographing. The cover shot that had the setting sun’s low angle rays highlighting my Insights flowing areo body lines generated lots of letters to the magazine. Many of the authors of those letters commented on how cool looking the hybrid car was on the cover. I have competed with my Insight at sound-off car stereo contests and it never fails to draw a crowd. Yes, some do think it’s ‘butt ugly’ but often, these same individuals think a pretentious Pontiac is good looking and they salivate over a gawdy Humvee. The majority of the folks are more forward thinking and say the opposite. They speak of the beauty of its sleek design and the hunkered-down sucked-to-the-road profile.

One thing’s for sure, the Insight does not invoke a tepid reaction….you either love it or hate it. It’s hard to hate a car that can deliver in the 90+ mph range, and routinely delivers high 60’s in the city and 75 mpg at freeway speeds.

See Ya…John Wayland

2000 5 speed Honda Insight
‘world’s first sound-off hybrid car’
On the cover, Oct. ‘01 Car Audio and Electronics
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/210.html

Hello David and All,

David Dymaxion wrote:

> Great description! Were you able to adjust the field strength
> independently of the armature? In other words, was it 12V-24V-48V
> across both the field and armature together, or did the armature have
> a different voltage than the field?

Yes, I was able to independently control the field. I used a fairly simple control that consisted of a beefy TO3 package transistor on a heat sink and a potentiometer that varied base current. I could ‘dial in’ anything from about 12 volts to 48 volts. I also had a second way of getting regen without playing with the field at all, and this was simply a byproduct of my 3 step contactor controller.

The controller worked this way. At the first depression of the accelerator pedal, a micro switch would engage 1st speed. The car would start off with the eight 6 volt batteries wired in a series-parallel 24V setup through a forklift nichrome resistor that helped reduce the initial jerk of torque. The resistor ‘had’ to be cooled off, or it would try to glow orange-hot. Though resistor control is considered primitive by today’s standards, it was only used for that initial take-off period of a 1-5 seconds, so not too much power was dumped away in heat. Speaking of that heat, I used an innovative way of cooling the resistor off. I morphed a 120 vac fan from a desktop type small space heater with a 12 vdc tape drive motor from an 8 track tape player to make a 12 vdc fan (brushless DC muffin fans were not commonly available yet). The input wires to the motor went across the resistor, as I measured anything from 10 volts to 16 volts or so being dropped across it. Thus, the 12V accessory power from the car was not used to run the fan (that draw would have had a minimal effect on the 12V system, but hey, I was still learning stuff). The hotter the resistor tried to get, the faster the fan blew. The very hot exhausted air from this crude affair was channeled into the car’s weirdo heating system (the aforementioned wasted motor exhaust air) to give extra heat for warming the cabin in the Winter months.

I digress…..after the 1st resistor/24V stage, as you depressed the accelerator farther down, a second micro switch fired another contactor that would short out the resistor….now the car is accelerating harder at a straight 24 volts.

The last 3rd speed was triggered at full throttle, when the 24V series/parallel contactors would let go and the pack was reconfigured to a straight 48V. Now, for the regen part….if you were flying down the road at 48 volts in the shunt motor mode, then let up a little to trigger the 24V mode, you’d get BIG regen. If you at the same time, twisted the handy dash controlled pot. and dialed up full field current, it would almost lock up the rear tires.

> Thanks. I’m wondering if the
> shunt acceleration might have been the same as the series with sepex
> control.

No, it wouldn’t have been. The shunt field windings were very fine wire. Though I had actually turned the motor into a sepex type, to make a really ‘effective’ sepex motor, the field windings would have needed to be made of fewer turns of thicker wire. The Sepex motors used in the more recent electric forklifts do have considerably smaller field wire size than their series-wound brothers that use thick flat ribbon wire for the fields that like the armature windings have to pass 500 amps of juice, but the field wires are still fairly robust. The field windings of a true sepex type are generally sized somewhere in between a regular shunt-wound motor’s fine strands of windings and a series-wound motor’s lower number of beefy ribbon wires.

As Lee said, our crude conversions based on these compound-wound starter-generators served as our rolling classrooms.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello Lawrence and All,

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> I suspect the shunt motor will be about the same performance and with 12 batteries more speed and range. If it did just 20 miles it would be plenty. Am I right that the shunt motor is about the type of motor as your generator motor????? Again the regen is a major plus for hilly areas with stop signs. Lawrence Rhodes…

I used both the shunt wound section and the series wound sections of the GE 2CM77 ‘compound wound’ motor. They were called starter/generators because they were two items in one housing. They would first be fired up in the series mode and used as a ’starter’ to crank over the aircraft engine…then, once the engine roared to life, the series wound section would be shut down and the ‘generator’ section shunt wound would be used to charge things up and run aircraft electricals.

In the formative years of Blue Meanie, the 48V car used the series mode gave the best acceleration runs…that’s what I’d use to squeal the tires when giving electric car demo rides. That 52 miles the car achieved on just 8 golf car batteries was done in the shunt mode. It used far less current than did the series wound section. Yes, the shunt wound portion of this motor/generator could give killer regen! I once ran the car out of power (cell reversing mode on) pulling the steep west hills of Portland, then, could not get any outlet type of recharge before having to return 10 miles home. I went down a long, steep grade of 4+ miles and regenned the whole way at near 200 amps! It was enough to keep the car up to speed for the slow 30-35 mph surface street drive all the way home. Normally, I used a 12-24V field to cruise, then cranked it up to a full 48V to get BIG regen. It worked great.

As Lee pointed out, though, especially in the series mode, the motor was very inefficient. I cooled mine with a large squirrel cage blower from a wrecked Jaguar’s HVAC system. For a while, I captured the waste heated cooling air and channeled it into the passenger compartment for heat. It provided quite a bit, too, but the air smelled like a hot 40+ year old surplus motor and it was unhealthy to breath the brush dust filled exhaust air…not one of my more brilliant ideas! Lastly, the motor had a jet engine sounding whine, much more entertaining than the awful Curtis fixed frequency square wave whine, but nonetheless it was fairly loud.

When I used the waste heat for cabin warmth, I came up with a nifty trick. I used a heat exchanger heater hose from an air cooled VW Beetle. The hose was a flexible tube that was a combination air passage way and muffler, in that was used to pipe in heat while filtering out the clatter of an air cooled 4 cylinder VW bug motor. It worked equally well at allowing the aircraft generator’s waste heat into the car minus that loud whine.

It’s fun to reminisce….

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Lee Hart wrote:

>My first EV had a 30v 500amp aircraft generator;
>slightlybigger than the one here. But it was also a 1974 Datsun pickup; fairly small and light, >but not as light or aerodynamic as small car. I had twelve 6v golf cart batteries, which is a >rather light pack. I ran it with a 36v/72v contactor controller, and the original 4-speed >manual transmission. Top speed was about 55 mph. Range was 20-30 miles, depending on >speed and driving style. Accelleration was about the same as the stock 4-cyl 1800cc engine; >but it drew 500-1000 amps from the poor batteries to do it. Efficiency was lower than >modern motors (it took two automotive heater blower motors to cool it), though the only >other consequence was a 10-20% loss of range compared to what I could have gotten with a >better motor. It was my daily >commuter for 2 years, doing 5 miles each way to work. The >batteries lasted 2 years, by which >time they were murdered from newbie abuse and could no >longer get me to/from work.

>I think John Wayland had a similar experience with his first EV, a Datsun 1200 sedan. A 30v >starter-generator and pack of 6v floodeds is a crude, but workable way to make your first EV.

Yes, Lee, you remember correctly. At the Plasma Boy Racing video page, towards the end of the selections one can find and download a video from 1984 of Blue Meanie, when it was motivated by a surplus aircraft starter/generator, model 2CM77.
The 30V 500 amp generator (same rating as Lee’s) was force-fed 48V through a three step contactor speed controller I scrapped together, and like Lee said, 1000 amps was a common battery discharge! Far lighter than Lee’s Datsun pickup (2170 lbs. curb weight as a gasser) with 12 golf car batteries, my little Datsun 1200 sedan (1587 lbs. curb weight as a gasser) with just 8 golf car batteries weighed maybe 1800 lbs. and would smoke the back tires. It could hit 70+ mph on a straightaway (I was clocked on radar at 81 mph on a slightly downhill run). At 1984 SEVA Long Distance Rally, the 48V Meanie ran 52 miles on just 8 golf car batteries, though admittedly, we went a tepid 35 mph for the test loop. I out-did Lee by destroying the flooded 6 volters in just 6 months, blowing one of them up in a dramatic explosion that blew the car’s back seat off its mounts! The next set of 8 floodies was treated a little better, but still, with my regular ‘demonstrations’ of electric power, I ruined those in a little over a year. The advent of powerful AGMs, especially the Optimas, was a godsend to an addicted amphead like me!

> My view is that such vehicles are cheap and simple, and work well enough to be usable. And, >they *teach* you a lot about EVs; enough so your *next* EV will be a lot better. Consider >them an EV college course on wheels!

I agree, though I’d say it’s more like a high school shop class on wheels.

See Ya……..John Wayland

Hello to John and All,

John Westlund wrote:

>Read this topic:http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8987.html Videos, referenced stats, >photos of races, you name it, this topic has it. (Note: White Zombie outdated in this topic. >Zombie is pulling 12.1-12.2 second 1/4 miles now)

Hey John, maybe you should get back to the guy on the above referenced list that thinks ‘Gas is still better for performance app’s, how can someone resist spanking a 15k electric Datsun 1200 with a 5k Datsun 240z+bbc (Big Block Chevy’ Tell him that White Zombie absolutely spanked a Datsun Z stuffed with a 350 Chev V8 shot with NOS! He ran a 12.6, but it wasn’t enough…. Tim blew his doors off in front of his V8 buddies, with an electrifying 12.2!

Oh, and for the other guy that said, “It does take oil to keep the whole shebang going though….we’re not going to be able to continue as before by switching to electricity.”… let him know that other than having to use a gas generator at the track because the track isn’t yet geared for electrics (this is changing for ‘06 PIR when they allow us to tap into their grid and install 240 vac NEMA 1450’s), my electric street legal drag car gets all of its juice from a totally non-oil power source, zero air pollution and foreign oil independent hydroelectric power generated from the mighty Columbia River!

Have fun!

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello Rodney and All,

Rodney wrote:

> Hey Everyone (esp John)
> Thanks John for your detailed reply.. Much appreciated!

You’re welcome.

> One question though, you said that you have a 4:57 ratio, do you use a
> torque converter or differential?

No need for a torque converter, so no. There’s so much torque available from the electric motor, there’s no need to try to multiply the torque either by using a torque converter or a tranny. The same goes for a flywheel…no need to have one to spin up to get help taking off because there’s so much torque from the electric motor, and with no tranny, there’s no need for a clutch, either. Yes, the car has a differential. The output shaft of the racing motor is splined. A custom aluminum driveline has a female splined end that slides onto the electric motor shaft, and the other end of the driveline is connected to the differential’s input pinion. This setup is just like any regular car with a motor, a flywheel and clutch, a tranny, a driveline, and the rear end, only simpler with just a motor (no flywheel, clutch, or tranny), a driveline, and the rear end.

> If so, what about those ratio’s? I mean,
> is the 4:57 your motor to drivetrain ratio, or final ratio to the wheel?

It’s the final ratio to the wheels. The motor shaft and driveline are directly connected and spin together feeding the differential’s pinion, which has a 4:57 to 1 ratio with the axles.

See ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Mark Farver posts the Zombie’s performance graphs and makes them available at my request. The reasons I do this are many, but one of the best, is so that the sharp minds here on the EVDL will analyze, scrutinize, and report their opinions on what we are doing. It’s like having one big R&D family, isn’t it?

Chris Brune wrote:

> I have spent a fair amount of time looking at the data from Run #6 on 10/22
> of the Zombie….I calculate that the run itself takes about 4.3 Ahr out of the pack.

Very good, Chris. In fact, the Emeter showed 4.0 ahrs going back into the pack after the early recharges before the batteries are up to full power, and towards th end of the night as we are able to extract more battery power due to hotter batteries, it takes about 4.2 -4.4 ahrs for a refill. At the track, we do not fully top off the pack because of time constraints, so when the charger hits its constant voltage stage I turn it off when the current ramps down to ~8 amps or so.

From Rodney:

> Hi Chris
> Just wondering, when you did the analysis did you notice a significant
> difference between the speeds when the Zilla switched from series to
> parallel.

Rodney, since it’s my car and I’ve spent a good deal of time driving it down the track, I’ll answer this for you. Your question is a bit confusing as the answer seems pretty obvious, though. Of course there is a difference in speeds. The shift point from series to parallel happens at around 55-60 mph, sometimes at speeds of around 70 mph, depending on controller settings. After that in parallel mode, the speed rises as the car goes down the track to 104-106 mph for the distance of a 1/4 mile.

> For example, what was your max speed using the motors in series?

Answered above, but left in series mode without an automatic shift into parallel, the car still hits 94-95 mph in the 1/4 mile. On an open road where the limitation of the 1/4 mile distance is removed, and with the current gearing the car would nearly hit the same top speed in series, as it would in parallel, it just wouldn’t get there as quickly.

> Given that the controller was showing max Amps in series, I assume that was
> the max speed?

No, not even close. As I said, when the car is kept from switching into parallel, it still runs pretty hard and can easily top 100 mph. It only hits the 55-70 mph in series on the track, because we force the shift into parallel to occur in our efforts to have the car run quicker, not faster. 1/4 mile drag racing is first and foremost. about acceleration, not top speed. High top speeds are a byproduct of tremendous acceleration.

> And then when the Zilla switched to parallel how did it alter
> the top speed?

In the confines of a scant 1/4 mile, the extra acceleration blast of shifting into parallel increases top speed from the mid 90’s to 104-106 mph, or about 10 additional mph. We are not trying to see the highest ‘top speed’ in 1/4 mile drag racing, rather, we are trying to cover the distance of 1/4 mile in the shortest possible time….it’s acceleration we’re after, not top speed. I’ll take an 11.9 @ 101 mph over a 12.2 @ 106 mph, any day!

Back to top speed….in either series or parallel mode, the two limiting factors to the car’s top speed are max safe motor rpm and battery capacity. The motor can only spin up to a certain rpm and still stay in one piece, and the batteries can only belt out high currents for so long before they sag too low. If I were to run a top speed test, I’d do it minus the extreme rate of acceleration to get up to the 100 mph area….this would save huge amounts of battery power and leave the bulk of it for running a nice sustained top speed effort. Because the Siamese 8 motor is essentially two motors, when in series mode, they divide the available voltage. If that’s say, 200V, then each motor will only rev-up to whatever rpm they can reach at 100V. In parallel mode with that same 200V supply, ignoring any additional sag for this discussion, each motor will rev-up to whatever rpm they can reach at 200V.

In theory from my experience with this car, I’d say that top speed with narrower tires to reduce drag, would be ~ 110 mph in the series mode and ~ 120 mph in the parallel mode. Remember, it’s fitted with a super low 4:57 gear ratio for ‘acceleration’ not ‘top speed’. Now, switch that ratio out and put in, say a 3:10 ratio in back, and I’d bet this car could hit 140-150 mph fairly easily….it certainly seems to have enough power on tap to do this It might be fun to lower it, do some areo improvements, and run a 2:50 ratio to see what it would do on the salt flats! 170 mph?

With White Zombie’s current gear ratio, its lower powered brother, Blue Meanie, can probably out run it on an open highway, as I suspect that with its 50 psi inflated narrow LRR tires, its good power to weight ratio, and with 3:90 rear gears, Blue Meanie could hit 125 mph. I have no real stats to prove this, but my seat of the pants estimates have served me well over the years.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

James Massey wrote:

> I did happen to stumble on the white zombie…. this might
> be fine for a quick drag, but what I was wondering was if this could also be
> used for a street car?

Don’t let those stickers fool you. White Zombie ‘is’ a street car.

From James:

>John Wayland (owner of White Zombie) aparently often uses the car for street use, and just >for fun picking on Vipers and similar in short [green light to the speed limit] drags where the >low-speed acceleration excels. But the car is fine for trips to the shops, too. John may have >some comments (assuming he followed this far) John?

Yes, it’s driven to work on occasions, driven to the grocery store, driven around town, driven to various car shows and EVents, and of course, driven to the race track! It’s not used as often as Blue Meanie is, because the Meanie’s plenty quick enough, has seating for four, has a cozy interior with tunes, and the final reason….my wife knows how powerful WZ is and puts limits on my street time in that car

>Is this system basically the same as a tranmission’s gearing?

Nope, the rpm never changes with the ‘electrical shift’ and merely keeps climbing higher.

> And at top speed in parallel mode, is the consumption of the motors so high that you
> drain your battery packs too fast?

Any EV at top speed is going to drain the batteries too fast Two motors easily moving a car as opposed to one under-sized motor working too hard, actually use less current to get the job done. On the other hand, a single motor properly sized can match two motors.

My two Datsun 1200 sedans are identical ‘72 models, but one has a single 9 inch motor with 4 speed tranny, Z 1K controller, a 156V pack, and skinny LRR tires, while the other has the equivalent of two 8 inch motors, no tranny, a Z 2K controller, a 348V pack, and fat traction tires. Each car weighs ~ 2300 lbs. Perhaps I can sometime, make some good comparisons in efficiency between the two.

From James:

> ….I wonder how much/if any White Zombie could improve at the top end with twin 2000A >Zilla controllers instead of one in S/P).

There would have to be enough battery power to deliver all those extra amps twin controller could deliver. Is there enough right now? Don’t know, we’re still sorting out all the data. Don’t tempt me on this….another Z 2K Zilla will be on hand for next year’s racing, one for the minitruck. It’s not entirely out of the question to put two of them in the car for a little experimentation purposes

Summary….direct drive either with twin motors or one larger one, works well if properly executed. Blue Meanie is light enough and has a big enough motor (ADC 9 inch) and controller (Z 1K Zilla), that it can be driven as a direct drive car by simply leaving it in either 3rd or 4th gear all the time. The acceleration is very adequate, and taking off on slight hills in 4th is no problem, though 3rd has considerably higher take-off power and can still take the car up to and over 80 mph. I would not encourage direct drive in a heavy (more than 2600 lbs. or so) EV, unless the gearing was such that top speed was limited to around 80 mph. If one lives in hilly areas, the twin motor with series/parallel shift would be a good idea. The simplest and least expensive version would be a manual tranny car with a single motor, but with a lively power to weight ratio so that direct drive is easy to do by leaving the selector in 3rd or 4th.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

Neon John wrote:

>I’ve asked this of others before and I’m asking again. I’m interested in seeing some specifics >of what you’d do to run, say, 10 seconds. After all, a plan is the first step to getting there! I’ve >piddled around with some numbers and I can’t get there from here, at least not without >something vastly more exotic than Li batteries and hacked DC motors. Dumping sufficient >energy sufficiently fast enough seems to be the major bottleneck to me.

See my post ‘Lithium Pack vs TMF Cells?’ Added to that post…you are correct in assuming that the inherent limitations of mechanical commutation of a DC motor ‘might’ be a limiting factor, but I’ll only concede in the ‘might’ area. If pockets were deep enough, a radical inverter/AC drive could cure this. Also, remember that 10’s were almost bagged by Rod and Maniac Mazda more than 6 years ago….an 11.2 is damn close to the 10’s! Rod was knocking on the 10’s door with hacked DC motors and lead acid batteries, though they ‘were’ special batteries. Have you ever watched the video of Rod’s low 11 run at Bremerton? You might want to if you haven’t, as it will look quite similar to watching your buddies’ 10 second cars run. Rod still had work to do in perfecting this car to run even quicker, but the TMF battery supply dried up before he got there. I hav>e no doubts he was on his way to mid 10’s.

John, you weren’t hanging around Rod, Bill, and Dennis when these three had accesss to the TMF batteries. I was in the thick of it with these guys, though I only got morsels in the form of 4 or 5 Inspira types (the TMF 12V blocks JCI made and that Rod and Dennis ran with) and 50 or so Bolder TMF cells from Bill to play around with. If you had been and had seen the insane power delivery these batteries gave, you might be able to ‘get there from here’. I also, think you are too close to your ICE buddies with their admittedly, super quick 10 second street cars, and thus your brain seems to be stuck in the ICE horsepower / torque universe. Trust me, electric motors deliver a far different kind of power, a power that seems at odds with specs. For example, in the next few weeks we plan on dynoing White Zombie. I’ll predict right now, that the measured hp will be way lower than what 1/4 mile calculators predict my car needs to accomplish what it already has. I think you are using what you know about ICE power requirements to get the job done, instead of electric motor requirements….the two really can’t be compared in an apples to apples sort of way.

Bill Dube’s electric drag bike is very competitive with ICE type 9.4 second bikes, yet, it has far lower rated hp than they do. By all accounts, Bill hadn’t reached the pinnacle of design while he still had access to fresh Bolder cells, either. He hadn’t tried series-to-parallel shifting yet, he hadn’t tried variable brush timing yet, etc. It’s conceivable that Kilocycle could have run in the low 8’s or even in the high 7’s with these tricks applied. Dennis Berube has approached his glory days 8.8 second run when using TMF cells, with regular AGM batteries, because he’s kept tweaking and trying new motor mods, including variable brush timing…imagine what he could do if he were to suddenly drop in a fresh pack of TMF cells, or, super high power lithiums?

The pack of Hawker Aerobatteries in White Zombie have been fantastic and have propelled this car nearly into the 11’s. Keeping the same motor arrangement and perhaps improving the gear ratio to a more perfect match-up, we believe we’ll get into the 11’s next year.
Dual variable brush timing of the Siamese 8 isn’t out of the question, either With some kind of lithium sponsorship, a Zombie that’s hundreds of lbs. lighter with more power delivery on board could possibly get into the high 10 second area….this, while still keeping the brushed series-wound Siamese 8. I too, have buddies with 10 second machines. One of them runs mid 10s with a big block AMX fitted with drag slicks. His best 60 ft. time is 1.62….ours is 1.59 on street drag radials!

In my dream world, a lithium pack of say, 600 volts and an AC drive with the inverter designed and built by Otmar…yeah, your buddies with their 35 psi boosted Grand Nationals and V8 big blocks should be very afraid! For now, I’m going to have to agree with you, that with what I’ve currently got to work with, 10’s don’t seem too reasonable and your buddies are safe…but 11’s are coming!

You don’t get anywhere if you don’t dream, and as much of a Clint Eastwood fan as I am, I guess I don’t know my limitations yet

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

I’ve not commented before on posts from John De Armond in the past, rather, I’ve simply read his stuff and for the most part have found his writings interesting, to say the least. I get a bit frustrated when he gets attacked for the things he writes, because he’s often correct in his opinions. Yeah, he can get pretty controversial, and yes, he often pushes buttons and may even sometimes offend, but in general, I enjoy having his spirited contributions here on the EVDL. It is with this backdrop that I am now replying to John’s comments below. He did not offend me at all, but he ‘did’ make me think because of what he wrote….this is why it’s good to have dissenting opinions.

Neon John wrote:

> IMHO, EVs should stick to areas where they can look good.

I agree, and this is why we are out on the drag strip with White Zombie. EVs can and do look very good on the drag strip. No one, and I mean ‘no one’ who watches this little conversion run on its non-tubbed stock body with its street tires toast V8 muscle car after muscle car, or, watch it blow off a 405 hp Vette, or watch it suck the doors off a mid 12 second ricer with $40,000 in mods, or even watch it be competitive in bracket racing against trailered-in 9-10 second machines, thinks of it in anything but a positive light.

> Drag racing is good, as long as one doesn’t fool himself into thinking he can beat
> the best of class gas vehicles.

This comment really had me going for a while. My answer….I’m not fooled into thinking I can beat the ‘best of class gas vehicles’…..I know I can! I guess that’s about as in your face to John, as I can get, right? If I’ve got him pegged correctly, I doubt this comment phases him and he’s probably not offended in the least.

> White Zombie has oh, 3-4 seconds to
> go before it can beat the best of the streetable gas cars.

OK, this was the line that had me going, but I assessed it over and over and now am answering what he wrote. He’s right, and he’s wrong, with the emphasis on the wrong part If one considers the cars that can actually make a real mid 8 to 9 second pass and still be driven to the strip as being in the same class as my little car, then he’s correct….allow me to clarify. I know of one, just one car that runs at PIR that indeed, is driven to the track…rarely, but it ‘has’ happened. The car in question fits John’s description of being 3 seconds away from my car…not 4, but definitely 3. How-ev-er…..when you take a look at this ‘thing’, you’ll soon see that it really doesn’t fit his other description ‘best of class gas vehicles’, meaning that it’s the best of vehicles in the same class as mine. I’m talking about an insanely powerful, twin turbo, heavily modified late model Camaro that races with me at PIR. It runs 8.7 seconds @ 168 mph! I’ve talked with the owner/driver….he’s got more than $100K in this car! It has a fully tubbed and gutted body… the tubs are probably 2.5 feet wide and the tires under them wrinkle wall slicks. It’s 505 CID big block V8 has been dynoed at 1184 rear wheel hp! It’s got humongous turbo intake impeller housings poking up and out big square-ish holes in the hood….it’s got nitrous, it’s got a parachute, it’s got wheelie bars….well, I could go on….but, he does sometime show up with it having driven it to the track, license plates, tags, and BIG street tires. oh….did I say that with street tires, it only gets into the high 9’s? Now, it’s a pinch more than 2 seconds away from my little ‘ol Datsun, and that’s about 50% away from John’s 4 seconds! I don’t know about the rest of you, but this ‘thing’ is anything but in the same class as my car.

I understand what John was trying to pint out, that my electric Datsun is 3-4 seconds slower than the fastest of extremely built muscle cars that can are driven on the street. What he left out, was to what extremes these cars have to be taken to, to have this capability. They are in no way, in the same class as are the cars I do race against and that for now, I’m beating with regularity.

The last night we raced, there were two cars that ran in the high 8s…the crazy Camaro I just described (he trailered it in with the wrinkle walls already mounted) and a funny car looking fiberglass tilt-down body affair, so much a charicature of the real car it was based on, that I cannot tell you what kind of car it was supposed to be. Both cars ran 8.7 something. The 1200 hp Camaro barely beat the funny car creation, a tribute considering the Camaro can be driven on the street while the other ‘thing’ could never be. Funny…..these two quickest of the night machines, had maybe an occasional handful of fans around them.

On the other hand, there were times I had a hard time getting close to my own car because of all the folks around it most of the time. of the remaining street cars that were driven to the track and passed the after-10 pm noise limit curfew that weeds out the extreme cars, White Zombie was I think, the second quickest car remaining in a field of perhaps 80 cars.

The truth is, the electric street car can be and in my case, is right there with the ‘best of class gas vehicles’. The class of vehicles my car is part of, are cars that have anywhere from $10,000 - $40,000 dumped into them, that have slicks and have gutted bodies and tubbed sections, and that are driven to the track. I can honestly say, that White Zombie is quicker than the majority of the cars it competes with. Yes, there are always classic muscle cars that show up that still have their interiors that run mid elevens, and there are 11 second full race Hondas, too, but hey, they’re within striking range! And even if John is not impressed with my car’s performance, these guys are! In fact, so is the guy with the 1200 hp Camaro! So are the track officials, and most importantly, so are the race fans.

Take this a bit further….give me the same $100k budget as the Camaro guy, and I’ll build that street legal (term stretched to fit John’s idea of one) EV that can run a mid 8 second time. High power, low weight lithium pack, Siamese 13, tubbed and stuffed with 2 foot wide wrinkle walls, parachute, wheelie bars….yeah, I think I could do it! Would it be tough to pull off? Yes, but, the gas car hotrodders have a huge infrastructure in place and at least a 70 year head start on us Ampheads.

In closing….John’s right about picking the right battles with what you’ve got to work with. He’s also right on a lot of other things, too. I value his input to this list, and hope he continues to make the rest of us think about what we say. I’d love to sit down with him over a plate of ribs sometime!

See Ya…John Wayland

Hello to All,

Mark Farver wrote:

> I need to figure out the RPM to speed conversion. I think John said his rear tires are down to 23.5″ circumference, and the rear end ratio is 4.74.

Mark, you somehow heard or remember this wrong. What I said was, that going from memory, I thought they were 24.3 inches in diameter, and that I figured they were now worn down to about 24 inches or so. I just checked the BF Goodrich website, and the new version Drag Force street drag radial (a different tread altogether but the same 215/60/14 size) is 24.2 inches…pretty close to what my memory recalled. I also measured the tires just now, and holding parallel straight edges against the leading and trailing tire center, I get 24 inches on the nose.

> I think John has 13″ tires, so a rough circumference is 13*pi = or about 40 inches. I must have heard him wrong.

Though the Datsun 1200 came with 12 inch wheels and tires (12 x 4.5 inch rims with skinny 155 SR12 tires), White Zombie now has 175/50/13 rubber mounted on the front 13 x 5.5 rims, and 215/60/14 rubber mounted on the rear 14 x 6 inch rims.

Zombie trivia…..The Dutchman rear axle sports 5 bolt Ford front wheel drive offset wheels, while the front has 4 bolt Nissan rear wheel drive offset wheels. I searched long and hard to find a manufacturer who made a wheel I found gorgeous, and, that was made in various versions to fit different vehicle types. The clean looking 5 spoke polished Eagle series 188 alloys I selected, fit this criteria. Thus, the wheels are a match in look, fit, and finish on my car, even though they are two different diameters (14 vs 13), have two different offsets (FWD vs RWD), and feature two different widths (6 inches vs 5.5 inches). The result, is that the car looks as if it came from the factory this way. The fat rear tires neatly and just barely, tuck up into the rear fender wells, while the fronts have the same proportional fit, too.

See Ya….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Ryan Stotts wrote:

> Wayland wrote: lots of rear wheel spin, the front end came a full foot
> off the ground and the car carried the tires about 50 feet
> Sounds like it’s got more potential then just high 11’s?

Maybe, but we failed to hit that mark Saturday night

> What do you
> think it might run once you get it too hook?

I’m not sure….it’s gotten real interesting these past couple of nights drag racing. With Fall firmly entrenched, the track just gets too cold as soon as the sun goes down. That Wednesday night about two weeks ago was probably our best shot at the 11’s for this year. The high power Pro class cars were blistering their rubber and laying down lots of stick for us, so even with the cold track, we had great traction….the dual 12.1 runs proved that. This past Friday and Saturday nights, we were back to street racing, with only a handful of super quick pro type cars, and lots of the regular 13-14 second drag cars, so the track was really bad. One launch right after they had cleaned the track, the Zombie lazily left the line with both rear tires boiling for maybe 60 feet or so with a so-so 60 ft. time of 2.2 seconds…it ran a 13.3 something. The very next run though, after a few of the more powerful machines had spun their tires, we bagged a 12.6 because the car hooked up much better.

Saturday night, we were getting very strong launches and our very best ever, 60 ft. time with an awesome 1.59!! However, after the car’s front end touched back down it was hard for Tim to keep it straight as both rear tires scratched and clawed at 40-60 mph. Even so, with the battery amps raised to 1100 amps (yes, the little 26 ahr Hawker Aerobatteries lived through it) and with clearly audible tire squealing at the series-to-parallel upshift, we got down to the 12.2 region on the last two passes….not too shabby.

To answer your question, I’d have to agree with Tim, that all things being just right, the car as is. ‘might’ run an 11.9 or perhaps even an 11.8. However, I think that’s about it with the present gear ratio in back. Now, with slightly taller gears, say a 4:40 instead of the present 4:57, I think we’d be looking seriously at mid 11’s being ‘possible’. Talk is cheap, though, so I’ll shut up now and try to prove this next Spring

By the way, once we turned up the battery amps to 1100 late on Saturday night, White Zombie was pretty violent off the line, clearing the pavement by at least a foot and staying aloft with the nose up for quite a ways…this really brought the small late night crowd to their feet! The car doesn’t just pop up the nose anymore…it pulls it up and keeps it off the ground for a fair distance, then gently settles back down.

On one run when I was in the crowd watching like they were, two guys were talking about the run about to happen down on the track…the little White Datsun vs a bad ass Subaru 300 hp STI all wheel drive. The one guy said, “That little Datsun’s gonna get creamed.” The other guy said, “I take it, you haven’t seen it run yet?” One guy, “Nope, but that Sube’s the high powered low 13 second version, the STI….he’s gonna blow off that little Datsun.” Other guy, “Uhhh, no, I don’t think so! Let’s put it this way….the Sube driver has no idea of what’s about to happen to him…by the way, it’s an electric car!” About then, the tree sent the combatants on their way. The Sube launched hard with its 300 hp and all wheel drive, but Tim powered the Zombie into a wheel lifting launch that made it look as if the EV had been shot out of a cannon! By the time the front wheels were back on the ground, White Zombie was probably 2 car lengths ahead of the hot Sube. At the far end of the track the reader boards said it all….13.316 for the STI…..12.231 for the electric car!

See Ya….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Last minute notice….Tim and I are headed back to PIR today, Saturday. It’s in the mid 70’s, and what the heck, we’re going to try for the elusive 11’s once again! We should be at the track today by 5:00 and be the first ones through the gate. Can you say 1100 battery amps?

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

John Wayland wrote:

> Hello to All,

> Just a quick early morning note to confirm that all systems are ‘go’ for the Zombie’s run at >the 11’s tonight at Portland International Raceway.

Oh well…..no 11’s! To keep this short, it was a weird day and a weird night, too.
Best ET was 12.332 @ 103.67 mph. We only got 5 runs in and had to wait on one round, two long hours to get another run in
We ‘did’ manage to crank up the Zilla to 2000 amps in the series mode, and even with lots of rear wheel spin, the front end came a full foot off the ground and the car carried the tires about 50 feet….it’s great video!

I’ll post a more detailed report later.

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Just a quick early morning note to confirm that all systems are ‘go’ for the Zombie’s run at the 11’s tonight at Portland International Raceway. Gates open at 6:00, and White Zombie will be fully charged and ready to fly at that time.

We took both 1200s out for a spin last night, with the idea to reactivate the Hawker Aerobattery pack and heat things up a bit. Tim and the new kid at work, Jason, were in the white car, I in the ever faithful friend Blue Meanie. It was quite a scene, the two straight and clean vintage Datsun 1200’s cruising down the road together. On a clear and car-less section of road, Tim got on the throttle a bit for Jason to experience a little Zombie power. It was fun to be behind it and smell the instantly heated rubber as twin black stripes were painted down for perhaps 40 feet. Jason was nearly unable to talk when we had arrived at our destination…what a fun first ride in an EV it was for him!

Afterwards, both cars were put away in the EV shop with the insulated building’s electric furnace turned on to keep it warm and toasty inside. Today, we’ll leave for the track with the batteries pre-warmed and ready to go. The rpm sensor is now wired up, my original laptop is back and running again, and we’ll be taking data dumps on each and every run tonight. In addition, list member and friend Chris Brune may be at the track tonight with heat sensing equipment, so we can also plot and chart battery pack temperatures before and after each run. The rear tires are as close to being slicks as they can get, so with a warm track and lots of cars to lay down rubber, if the traction is there, the Zilla will be adjusted up to full power in the all important series configuration launch mode. Who knows, towards the end of the night after we hopefully bag an 11, I may just crank up the pack to 1100 amps!

If all goes well, this should be a historic night for EVs, and to repeat:

>Again, anyone in the Portland metro area with a video cam, please join us and help record >what we hope will be the first time an electric street conversion has ever blasted into the 11’s.

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Here we go at it again. After thinking we had maybe lost any chance of returning to the track this season due to increasingly cooler and wetter weather, and, because the track is not open for tonight’s Wednesday drags (it’s raining today, anyway), the surprise is one last window of opportunity for this Friday with the forecast of sun and near 70 degree temps! For the Willamette Valley and Portland metro area, late October is where the last warm days of early Fall fade away as daytime temps drop lower, the rains and winds pick up, and nighttime temps start flirting with low 40’s - high 30s. Then, from November through February it’s anything from
freezing temps, snow and ice, to just wet and c-cold 40 degree days. The point is….we’re racing this Friday night!

I had written:

> ….the sky was darkening and a mass of unfriendly clouds had displaced the sunshine…how >could a beautiful warm day go away so quickly? Fall in Oregon! Heading west on Marine >Drive towards the track, it was 5:30-ish (gates opened at 6:00) so we were still on schedule, >but so was the weather front. The skies above us were now foreboding, the huge river to our >right was choppy, and rain drops were dotting the windshield…..After the light rain >temporarily stopped, the racing resumed and we got the second and last pass of the >night…That was it, folks…it started to rain hard after that…. time to pack it up for the night

There’ll be none of that this weekend, as after today’s rain, it’s supposed to clear back up and stay warm through Sunday. Saturday and Sunday the track is set up for motorcycle road racing, but Friday night will be the ‘Les Schwab Late Night Drags’. The gates open at 6:00, and you can bet we’ll be charged up and ready to run. One thing that has helped us get on the track as soon a possible, is when we arrive at the Burger King just blocks away from the track at 5:30 where we do our recharge from the drive while we grab a gut bomb.

The drag radials are pretty much burnt down to where they look more like slicks now, so this will be their last race as well….after Friday night, they’ll be ready to be recycled. With the increased traction of the slick-like tires on a dry track, and with the improved traction bar design, we’ll be cranking up the Zilla to full power at 2000 amps in the series mode, for the first time. The launches should be strong!

Again, anyone in the Portland metro area with a video cam, please join us and help record what we hope will be the first time an electric
street conversion has ever blasted into the 11’s.

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

It’s the day after racing report….

Jay wrote:

> Well, it wasn’t to be.

Guess that pretty much covers it. I had written:

> Friday has rain predicted, but the cold weather front is not supposed to come in until later in >the evening. Tim and I ’should’ be off work a few hours earlier than normal. If the track opens >at 5:00 pm, we’ll be there in line to get in on time. For now, it’s still sunny and warm (for >October in Oregon).

Indeed, Friday’s weather was fabulous, sunny and right near 70 degrees for most of the day. Tim and I started work early and were both scheduled to be off before 3:00. As I wrenched on a Crown electric stock picker outdoors, my last job of the day, the blue sky punctuated with scattered clouds had me pumped about being able to race on a dry track, and I was thinking the weather guys had messed up with their gloomy forecast. However, as the clock spun closer to the 2:30 mark, a cool wind picked up rustling the Fall leaves…hmmmm. By the time I had the machine delivered back to the customer and with Velvet Revolver ponding my head as I cleaned up and put away my tools, the sky was darkening and a mass of unfriendly clouds had displaced the sunshine…how could a beautiful warm day go away so quickly? Fall in Oregon!

Tim and I were in radio contact, he heading west approaching his home about 30 miles away near the town of St. Helens, I heading east towards Plasma Central on the freeway system in my service truck. Calls were made to the PIR track, who gave the go-ahead for Friday night racing, but with the warning that they may have to shut down if needed. As Tim was talking about all things electric, a work service van passed in the lane to my right while another work truck passed on the lane to my immediate right. The one on the left had signage that read ‘Stoner Electric’ (great name, dude) while the big Ford on the right read ‘Oregon Electric Group’. What are the odds?

Marko Mongillo had also gotten off work early and was headed to meet up with Tim and I at my house. As we opened up the shop to ready the Zombie and load up the service truck with chargers, cords, and all the other items we take to the track, a small family situation had unfolded right on cue to pull me away from racing stuff for nearly an hour. I needed to refocus to help resolve things, and left with my wife who had also gotten off work early. We got everything handled, crisis over, and when we arrived back to the EV juice bar, there was White Zombie on the street, there was the service truck properly loaded and ready to go, and there were my two friends who, just as I knew they would do, had taken care of business. It’s really great to be associated with top quality guys like Tim and Marko!

It was fun watching the two of them pile into that little white car, excited about the fun drive to the track and ‘hopefully’ a dry night of racing. As we rolled along, the Zombie in the lead with me trailing in the service truck, sitting higher up and with that big panoramic view out the Isuzu’s large windshield, I had a clear view of the dash mounted Emeter’s bright red LED display and could watch the pack voltage…nifty. Heading west on Marine Drive towards the track, it was 5:30-ish (gates opened at 6:00) so we were still on schedule, but so was the weather front. The skies above us were now foreboding, the huge river to our right was choppy, and rain drops were dotting the windshield. Nonetheless, it was cool to watch White Zombie cruise along at 45 mph with orange, red, and gold leaves twirling in the vortices created by the electric sedan. I could also see arms flying about in the car as Tim and Marko were obviously having a lively conversation in a fun male bonding thing. There was still hope of dry racing, as I could see clear skies to the west and south of this dark mass above us, so onward we drove.

>With the threatening weather, competition for space in the staging lanes was >minimal…Wayland was uncharacteristically early to the strip, and it paid off.

How true. The track was our oyster, with perhaps 20 cars there, a far cry from the 150-200 cars that usually show up!

>Tim Brehm had already boiled the hides and produced a solid run in the mid 12’s before we >arrived.

I’d say upper 12’s, but I have the advantage of the time slips in hand. Yes, it was shaping up to be a solid run at the 11’s. The car usually makes a low 13 on the first pass of the night, then as the batteries do their electro-chemical thing and heat up and get agitated with each heavy discharge an recharge cycle, the car dips into the high 12’s, then mid 12’s etc. This time, the very first pass was a 12.805 @ 97.16 mph. The cold track was definitely an issue, but the new longer traction bars seemed to make up for the loss of stick and Tim bagged a nice 1.687 60 ft. time. No lift off at launch though and the front tires stayed on the ground as the rear tires failed to hook up as they squealed and spun. Oh yeah, and Tim blew off a late 60’s V8 Chevy Impala in the process.

> conditions were obviously against us tonight

Yup. After the light rain temporarily stopped, the racing resumed and we got the second and last pass of the night in, a 12.713 @ 99.73 mph. The 1.682 60 ft. time was nearly identical to the previous one. That was it, folks…it started to rain hard after that…. time to pack it up for the night

On the positive side, this was the first time we started off in the 12’s, and considering the very poor track conditions, it seems the new traction bars we made did the trick. We were able to maintain killer 60 ft. times even without the sticky bite a warmer rubber coated track brings. The car had considerable wheel spin, and even barked the tires on the series-to-parallel upshift, and yet we ran 12’s….not too shabby. There’s not too much doubt in my mind, that had the track been better and had we been able to keep running, we on on target for that elusive high 11. Will we get another window of opportunity before the season ends the first weekend of November?

Thanks to Jeff and Jay for the support. The post racing dinner was fun!

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

The weather isn’t cooperating very much with us right now The forecasters can’t pin down when this cold front with wind and rain is blowing in exactly…they’ll only say late on Friday. Until it arrives though, it’s supposed to be sunny and hit 70 today. We’re still planning on hitting the track today and hopefully, can make runs before we get rained out.

Mike Ellis wrote:

> I just want to thank you, John and Tim, for your efforts and your accounts
> of your nights at the strip.

And thank you, for the kudos…it’s very much appreciated! I sometimes worry about posting about White Zombie too often, but I can’t help but share the good things that have been going on at the track nearly every time we’ve raced…OK, there ‘was’ that night where we only got one run in and I stupidly locked us out of our base camp - charging station service truck! Quite frankly, it’s helped me along the way, too, as many of the EVDL listites have made good observations and have given back good suggestions.

> I get a real thrill reading them….

Again, thank you. It’s nice to know I haven’t bored everyone yet

> and I am always showing the videos of your races to my coworkers.

Yes, that’s what I want to hear! Spread the EV word, show folks they can be fun as well as practical. I’d love to hear your account of their reactions to what you’ve shown them.

> Good luck this weekend!

Thanks. Saturday is now out as an option, as the PIR track will be reconfigured for a big road racing event, and that, might get rained out. Friday has rain predicted, but the cold weather front is not supposed to come in until later in the evening. Tim and I ’should’ be off work a few hours earlier than normal. If the track opens at 5:00 pm, we’ll be there in line to get in on time. For now, it’s still sunny and warm (for October in Oregon).

Call for video cams……anybody in the Portland metro area, please come cheer Tim on and perhaps capture with video, a street legal electric door slammer passing through the 1/4 mile for the first time ever, in a sub-12, high 11second run! I’ve got a camcorder for someone to run as well….I suck at operating a camcorder, and I am too busy doing PR and charging duties to have a camcorder stuck to my head. We’re hoping to have one of my Mac’s in the car to log data from every run as well. The tach drive sensor still needs to be finished. If we get it all hooked up in time, Mark Farver will be called on to post those killer graphs he’s done…Mark?

See Ya (Friday at PIR)….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Jim Husted wrote:

> I was wondering though? Has anyone else noticed that Tim seems to be doing
> all the driving here lately??

Tim indeed, has exclusively driven this car into all the world records this year. It’s the least I can do to thank him for all his hard work. He’s spent countless hours here working on this car. Tim was supposed to drive Purple Phaze this year, but the truck just didn’t get done in time. We switched gears and focused on pushing White Zombie deeper into the 12’s…Tim was a huge part of this. There wasn’t one bit of whining or complaining out of Tim. He now is attacking Purple Phaze at his home where he’s been sandblasting it in preparation for bodywork and paint. Next year, Purple Phaze ‘will’ be on the track, will be in the 11’s and perhaps even the high 10’s, and Tim will be the driver. I’ll resume driving the slow car, White Zombie

> Hey John is that little ‘Ol Datsun getting too
> fast for you old man???

It’s all your fault, Jim. The Siamese 8 frightens me! Seriously….I’ll have my turn at the wheel next year, for now, Tim’s the man! He’s young, very smart, excited about EVs, perhaps the best mechanic I’ve ever met (at 27 he’s got the skills and experience of a much older man), and he’s a very nice person. I want a fresh face on Plasma Boy Racing, and the car looks way better with a young guy at the wheel than with an aging Greek. He fits right in with the younger guys at the track, is well liked, and represents EVs with a passion….it’s just what I want.

Tim Humphrey wrote:

> In fact I was wondering how John was managing to keep himself out of that car. That’s been > his baby and his dream for years now…

Yes, it has been and still is my baby, but I’m quite excited having Tim drive it. It’s sometimes, more fun to watch this car than to drive it. Now, I can be in the crowd, hear their remarks, talk with them, take pictures, watch the way the car reacts off the line, etc. I can also do my EV PR thing and accurate get info to the track officials in the tower.

> I can’t be believe he hasn’t piloted it once since it’s hit this performance level.

Well, I do drive it, just not on the track right now. It’s a hoot to nail it at 70 mph on the freeway and have it slam you back as it rushes to much higher speeds nearly instantaneously. I also drive it to the track most of the time to make sure all is well.

> How do you do it John??

How do I do it? I usually listen to some AC/DC really loud to satisfy my craving…that calms me down to where I can toss Tim the keys

We’re expecting warmer drier weather for this weekend, and if the rains stop in time we will be at the track Friday night for what may be our last track time until PIR reopens in the Spring (they shut down after the 1st weekend in Nov.) Tim pulled the traction bars out last night after work while I reworked an issue in the rear battery tray. Tonight we are meeting up with Marko Mongillo at the metal shop to modify the traction bars by making them 4 inches longer. This small change will eliminate the remaining spring wind-up we had, keep the rear axle in place better, move the lifting force farther forward and to a reinforced section of the frame, will shift weight transfer more to the rear, and should help the car launch even better and make it so that the Zilla can be cranked up to higher current levels in the series mode. We only need to shave off .2 seconds to break into the 11’s.

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Jim Husted wrote:

> I was wondering though? Has anyone else noticed that Tim seems to be doing
> all the driving here lately??
>
Tim indeed, has exclusively driven this car into all the world records this year. It’s the least I can do to thank him for all his hard work.
He’s spent countless hours here working on this car. Tim was supposed to drive Purple Phaze this year, but the truck just didn’t get done in time. We switched gears and focused on pushing White Zombie deeper into the 12’s…Tim was a huge part of this. There wasn’t one bit of whining or complaining out of Tim. He now is attacking Purple Phaze at his home where he’s been sandblasting it in preparation for bodywork and paint. Next year, Purple Phaze ‘will’ be on the track, will be in the 11’s and perhaps even the high 10’s, and Tim will be the driver. I’ll resume driving the slow car, White Zombie

> Hey John is that little ‘Ol Datsun getting too
> fast for you old man???

It’s all your fault, Jim. The Siamese 8 frightens me! Seriously….I’ll have my turn at the wheel next year, for now, Tim’s the man!
He’s young, very smart, excited about EVs, perhaps the best mechanic I’ve ever met (at 27 he’s got the skills and experience of a much older man), and he’s a very nice person. I want a fresh face on Plasma Boy Racing, and the car looks way better with a young guy at the wheel than with an aging Greek. He fits right in with the younger guys at the track, is well liked, and represents EVs with a passion….it’s just what I want.

Tim Humphrey wrote:

> In fact I was wondering how John was managing to keep himself out of that car. That’s been his baby and his dream for years now…
>
>
Yes, it has been and still is my baby, but I’m quite excited having Tim drive it. It’s sometimes, more fun to watch this car than to drive it. Now, I can be in the crowd, hear their remarks, talk with them, take pictures, watch the way the car reacts off the line, etc. I can also do my EV PR thing and accurate get info to the track officials in the tower.

> I can’t be believe he hasn’t piloted it once since it’s hit this performance level.
>
Well, I do drive it, just not on the track right now. It’s a hoot to nail it at 70 mph on the freeway and have it slam you back as it rushes to much higher speeds nearly instantaneously. I also drive it to the track most of the time to make sure all is well.

> How do you do it John??

How do I do it? I usually listen to some AC/DC really loud to satisfy my craving…that calms me down to where I can toss Tim the
keys

We’re expecting warmer drier weather for this weekend, and if the rains stop in time we will be at the track Friday night for what may be our last track time until PIR reopens in the Spring (they shut down after the 1st weekend in Nov.) Tim pulled the traction bars out last night after work while I reworked an issue in the rear battery tray. Tonight we are meeting up with Marko Mongillo at the metal shop to modify the traction bars by making them 4 inches longer. This small change will eliminate the remaining spring wind-up we had, keep the rear axle in place better, move the lifting force farther forward and to a reinforced section of the frame, will shift weight transfer more to the rear, and should help the car launch even better and make it so that the Zilla can be cranked up to higher current levels in the series mode. We only need to shave off .2 seconds to break into the 11’s.

See Ya…..John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Hi John,

> I think it has been commented before that the street tires of
> White Zombie are wrinkling on the first bite on taking off,
> as can be seen in the video that starts with the sparking
> brush, followed by a good take-off.

Yes they are. It’s one of the reasons these particular tires bite so hard off the line, as they slightly mimic wrinkle wall drag slicks (only slightly). Tim marked the tires and wheels with a small white line so we could monitor tire slippage on the rims. One tire has spun a tiny bit on its rim, but it’s not enough to worry us.

> What struck me when looking frame for frame was that the first
> movement of the car appeared to be the left rear wheel shooting
> forward by more than an inch (the right rear wheel changes angle,
> but not position) followed by the right rear wheel biting and
> shooting forward too, including wrinkling.

Yup, we noticed this too. It’s not a real good situation, but it’s one we’ve not had time to correct yet. We started to do it one week, but then figured we didn’t have the time to do it right, and so left it as it was. It has to do with several things. The main culprit is the traction bar length, they’re about 3 inches too short. Their snubbers ’should’ be hitting right at the leading spring eye, but instead, hit about 2.5 inches behind it on the spring body, which allows the springs to still wind up, though certainly nothing like they do minus the traction bars. We need to remove both bars, build new rectangular tube sections, shape them just so (they have to have an angle cut on the end to allow access for bolting-in the snubber), weld them in place to effectively lengthen them, paint them, then reinstall and adjust the snubber.
If this all sounds like a lot of work, you’re right! One can’t just go out and buy traction bars for a little Datsun 1200

> It seems that the power from the motor gets to the left rear wheel earlier than to the right >side one…

Not exactly. Power gets to both wheels wheels at the same time due to the Detroit Locker. You are right, in that the left wheel ‘appears’ to get the power before the right one. Here’s what’s happening. Because the motor turns counter clockwise, the reaction torque twists the car body clockwise (Newton’s 3rd law….for every force, there is an equal and opposite force). On one of the videos we have, you can really see the car body twisting on launch. I’m not sure if I have that one up at the site yet. Anyway, when the body twists to where it is higher on the driver’s side than on the passenger side, it unloads the left rear wheel while it more heavily loads the right one.

> I cannot explain
> why one side would not move while the other is already more
> than one inch ahead.

I can. As one tire bites and stays planted, the other is wrapping up its leaf spring (the fault of the mis-sized traction bars). Thus, the axle pivots on the tire that is planted, and that’s why the planted tire’s angle changes but it does not wander fore and aft. The other tire can move fore and aft as its spring is wrapping up and down. The Detroit Locker’s job is to monitor the wheel slip from side to side. When it senses the right wheel not spinning but sees that the left one is, it transfers power to the left one a bit more, then it bites. About the same time the left wheel is biting and the right one has less torque applied to it, the car body is twisting back to a more level position which now loads the left wheel more than it had been, while at the same time it relieves the right wheel of the higher than normal loading it first had….now it’s time for the right spring to wrap up and move the right side fore and aft as the left wheel stays planted.

Yeah, the Woodburn video was pretty telling, wasn’t it? We’re hoping that with the first heavy Oregon Fall rains coming to a temporary halt starting today, and with our ‘Indian Summer’ apparently beginning this week (the forecast is for high 60’s and lots of sun for up two weeks in a row), and that with work schedules permitting, Tim and I can pull the traction bars, get together with Marko Mongillo our expert metal fabricator, and fix the traction bar length problem.

We’re planning on making a try for the high 11’s this weekend. With my laptop problems solved, we’ll be able to adjust the Zilla track side. If we can get the same high traction as we did on that fun Wednesday night, once the batteries heat up and we’re close to the 11’s, I’ll crank up the Zilla to a full 2000 amps in the series mode to see how much extra performance is still untapped in this car. With the longer traction bars putting the lift a little farther ahead at the spring eye, the car’s weight transfer will be even better, which should reduce the 60 ft. time to maybe the 1.59 second area. The front end will come up a little more, hopefully just the right amount and not too much!

Keep in mind, we still have the battery pack held at 1000 amps. According to Hawker, we could probably pull 1100 amps for an 11-12 second time period and not blow any batteries. If we ‘can’ hit an 11.9-something with traction bar problems cured and the series mode motor current at 2000 amps, it makes one wonder how quick this car could run with an 1100 amp battery pack current limit!

For some unexplained reason, I’ve shown considerable restraint in the way I’ve guided this car along its journey into and through the 12s (man, that sounds good), and it seems to be working well. Along with all of the effort from Tim as well, we’ve got a good combination between us. I will continue with this plan and not change too many things too drastically or prematurely, so the only two mods for this weekend’s runs will be the redesigned traction bars and a change to the full 2000 amps in series mode (only if there’s enough traction on the track)…that 1100 battery amp thing will have to wait.

Se Ya..,,John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com