Wayland’s Words

Hello to All,

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

I know you can have a la Red Beastie lead sled built to
demonstrate a range number rather than be a normal commuter,
but it’s not exactly what most people would want to drive).

(Don’t get me wrong, I respect Dick Finley’s creation very much).

From Roger Stockton:

In all fairness, I think that Victor’s comment still stands.
The Red Beastie got about 2x the range of a typical conversion, and used
2x the amount of batteries…other aspects of performance suffered as a result: this was a 5000lb
2-person vehicle with reasonably slow acceleration despite a decent
motor and controller combination.

I agree with both of your assessments. The truck was actually even heavier, at exactly 5290 lbs. It’s acceleration was borderline, it was very heavy and felt cumbersome to drive, it slowed down on steep hills, and it took forever to get up to near 90 mph, but amazingly it ‘did’ reach the very high 80s on level ground. On the other hand, it was also capable of towing a 16 ft. tandem wheel trailer loaded with my 2300 car, the 500 lb. Heavy Metal Garden Tractor, and a generator plus tools and stuff, at 55 mph from the east side of Portland south to Woodburn, OR, a 45 mile trip, and it still had about 30% charge left.

Victor, I think you and Dick would have liked each other.

See Ya…….John Wayland

See a video of Red Beastie in action (19th thumbnail down from the top of the page) at the Plasma Boy website:

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Alan Smith wrote:

What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If you’ve gotten
over 60, definitely let me know.

Alan’s request does not state specifics such as vehicle types (size and weight), battery pack chemistry, battery pack weight and or BVWR (battery to vehicle weight ratio), weather conditions, the type of terrain, the average speed, the acceleration loads, the number of passengers (if any), etc., etc. I think any response to this request should include as much info as possible so those perusing the results can know the full story. For me, it’s not too impressive to say one got 60 miles of range, if they drove as if an egg were under their foot and kept speeds at or under 40 mph, for example. On the other hand, if one drove their EV like one normally does in a gas car, that is, accelerate up to speed briskly to stay with traffic flow, run along at 60-70 mph freeway speeds, climb various grades, and participate in stop and go traffic driving situations….then achieve a real 50 miles, now that’s impressive.

Here’s three examples from my own experiences:

(1) Circa 1984….Blue Meanie powered by just eight 6V wet cell lead acid golf car batteries with a primitive 3 step controller ( 24V w/resistor - 24V straight - 48V straight) and weighing about 1800 lbs. with batteries, managed 54 miles in a closed loop range rally circuit in Seattle against other EVs. That may seem impressive, until you realize that the speed limit was a tepid 35 mph on flat terrain on a warm summer day (best conditions for range using lead acid batteries). On average, there were two passengers on board, and acceleration was sometimes full-on tire spinning launches contrasted to sometimes old man type starts (excludes Dick Finley type old men). The car had a bit about a 30% BVWR. Acceleration was pretty good for a 48V car, especially in the 0-40 mph range, but real life 0-60 was probably 15 seconds. Normal everyday driving yielded about 25 miles range per charge.

(2) Circa 1997….Red Beastie powered by a whopping forty 6V wet cell lead acid golf car batteries with a lower powered controller maxed out at 450 amps (max current from each battery 250 amps) and weighing about 5300 lbs. with batteries, managed 120 miles in mostly 65 mph slow lane freeway driving between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA on varying terrain that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer day (best conditions for range using lead acid batteries). There were no passengers on board, and all accelerations up to speed were deliberately careful to extend range. The truck had a 47% BVWR. Acceleration was OK considering its portly 5300 lb. mass and a 120V 450 amp system. Real life 0-60 was probably 16- 18 seconds. Normal everyday driving around town with mixed city and slower 55 mph freeway driving (the speed limit within the city) yielded about 130 miles range per charge.

(3) Circa  2000 or 2001? …….EV Rental car, a GM EV1 powered by about 1100 lbs. of Ovonics NiMH batteries with a high performance AC drive system and weighing about 2900 lbs. with batteries, managed 110 miles in mostly 70-80 mph freeway driving between Escondido, CA and LA, CA on varying terrain that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer day (not the best conditions for range using NiMH batteries, as they like to be cooler). There were no passengers on board, and all accelerations up to speed were deliberately brisk for fun factor. The car had about 40% BVWR. Acceleration was stunning considering its range capabilities. Real life 0-60 was in the mid to high 7 second range. Here’s an excerpt from my story ‘Living in the Past, getting Beat by the Future’ (http://www.portev.org/commentary/living_in_the_past.htm):

At almost exactly 110 miles since I left the Saturn dealership, I had pulled off the freeway and was on Century Drive, stopped at a traffic light near EV Rentals. The EV1 had been flying along for about an hour and a half at 70-80 mph speeds, and had never once felt like it was running short on power. I noticed that there was an estimated 36 miles left on the range meter, so when the light went green, I decided to see what was left as I planted my right foot down one last time…..screeeeechhhh….,chirp-chirp…..scrreeechh….damn that traction control! What an EV! After running along at freeway speeds for so long, and after 110 miles, the thing could still fry the tires at will! I reluctantly pulled into the EV Rental lot and finding a Magna-charger, parked my electric friend and slipped the charge paddle into its nose…..29% battery left! And so ended my four day love affair with the Gen II EV1…one terrific electric car.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

I was excited to see this request for acceleration specs, until I realized my car has to be excluded
Steve wrote:

I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on acceleration. I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.

Steve’s range of  4 - 40 seconds takes my car out of the performance window he’s set, as it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in less than 4 seconds, so I guess I’ve got to sit this one out.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

I had written:

>I had also made it possible for Marko’s Fiat to be equipped with the same prototype group 31s, in fact, these two vehicles were the only >EVs on the street with these hard-to-get batteries.”

I heard from Rod who was quick to point out the following details:

>Actually we ran Group 31 Optimas in the British Land Rover with the large and very prominent “P”s on them at Moab. There were >pictures of the batteries in two major magazines, “Four Wheeler” and LRM (Land Rover Magazine) from England.

I stand corrected…sort of If I recall correctly, Rod got his group 31 YTs  several months after I did, so at the time that Baby Blue and Fiamp were running on them, we were indeed ‘the only EVs using them’. If you go to the photo at the following link, you can see that the two center mounted group 31 YT’s shown in Rod’s EV have the retail production lot labels on them, something that took a couple of months for Optima to get around to doing after the initial prototype offer to me.

http://www.evparts.com/about/images/roverFaceOff/H18.jpg

I’m certain Rod will re-correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure by the time Rod figured out what I was up to, Optima had run out of enough prototype batteries to fill his request for a full set of them, hence the two later production batteries mixed in with the prototype models.

Ah, the good ‘ol days back when Rod and I were EV rivals…now, it’s almost boring being good friends

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

I’ve always loved the 60’s thru early 70’s Datsun minitrucks, the original models that started the minitruck revolution that was the big thing for the 70’s period. Sadly, today there are no more true minitrucks as all have morphed into portly ‘midsize’ pickups. Anyway, some may remember a fun EV I put together back in the late 90’s, a ‘68 Datsun minitruck I called ‘Baby Blue’. It was featured in a documentary about EVs called ‘Where the Rubber Meets the Road’, where I had to convert it from a gasser to electric in one day, on camera. Of course, after that exhaustive 14 hour build, I improved the design. The end product was a 192V, 1200 amp road terror that was super fun to drive. The drive train consisted of an ADC 9 inch motor (properly timed), a Z car 5 speed tranny, racing clutch, the first T-Rex high voltage controller, thick 4/0 cabling, and 16 of the first prototypes of the experimental group 31 Optima YTs. I had also made it possible for Marko’s Fiat to be equipped with the same prototype group 31s, in fact, these two vehicles were the only EVs on the street with these hard-to-get batteries. I had placed the batteries in a custom metal enclosure mounted forward in the bed, leaving about 2/3 of open bed space. The plan was to at a later date, do a tilt bed with the batteries all mounted properly between the frame rails, out of sight and down lower for a better CG. It was a fun little truck that one late night on the freeway, handily smoked a 5 ohh Mustang at 80+ mph to 100 or so. I enjoyed the truck for a couple of years, then reluctantly sold it to me friend John Tuss. The truck is still available for viewing at the EV Photo Album, and though he no longer owns it, is still listed as John Tuss’ truck:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/039.html

Fast forward….several months ago, after 4+ years of simply driving this tough little EV as his daily machine, John sold the truck to friend Marko Mongillo of Fiamp fame (Marko’s Fiat 600 sedan also listed at the EV Photo Album). John’s a very nice guy but is not totally into maintaining an EV. The little truck had problems under his care and when two batteries failed (blew up from cell reversal)…he simply dropped it to a 168V truck and kept on driving. John drove the pickup way under its capabilities performance wise, driving as if he had an egg under his foot at all times (his normal mode of driving anything), so he noticed little difference at the reduced pack voltage. The pack never received regulators and pretty much was never equalized in any way. He simply charged it and drove it, day by day, until its range fell lower and lower.

Marko, with a little help from yours truly, has other plans now that he’s the new owner. I handed him 276V worth of brand new Exide Orbitals for the project. The past month or so we’ve been re-converting this nice little truck. Marko out-did his metalworking capabilities and made awesome stainless steel between-the-frame-rail battery boxes that somehow, hold all 23 batteries beneath the bed where they are out of sight. The truck looks like a stock, lowered minitruck with a fully functional bed again….nice! I’ve done all the high current wiring. Jim Husted just put some love on Marko’s motor:

Being that the High Voltage Nationals are only a month away….Thursday consisted of tearing into multiple motors and a lot of prep work…Added was a need to get Marko his motor as he also intends to bring out to Joliet this May.

Ah Jim, you’re letting the cat out of the bag! Oh well, time to let everyone know what we’re up to

I had just returned from central Oregon earlier this week, and as Jim posted, met up with Father Time and Jim on my way through Redmond back to Portland over yummy Chinese food. This past weekend as we had all planned, Father Time came back through town with Marko’s motor in tow. Madman Rudman too, was passing through on his way to Newberg, OR to have Easter with his folks. On a previous trip to Jim’s motor shop, I had picked up the Husetedized front motor from Gone Postal and brought it back to my place, as a service to Rod Wilde. You see, we Pacific Northwest EVers tend to help each other out every chance we get. Why pay hundreds of dollars in shipping costs sending 150+ lbs. of motor the 450 miles or so back and forth between Port Townsend, WA to Redmond, OR, when you can piggy back the thing with your EV buddies? Why should Marko pay to ship a heavy motor from Portland to Redmond and back (300 miles), when John the forklift guy goes back and forth that way all the time? As the commercial says ‘It’s the network’. The circle was complete for Rod’s motor, when Rudman was passing through Portland for the holiday with his family, a guy who lives in Kingston across the woods from Rod’s hometown of Port Townsend. As a sidebar…I could have done an even sweeter motor hand-off, as Tim ‘Electric Monkey’ Brehm left on Friday for a weekend with his mom up in Port Townsend! He wanted to hook up with Crazy Rod Wilde while he was up there, and I could have simply handed Rod’s motor to him and he could have delivered it in person. Oh well, Friday was a hectic forklift wrenching day for me, and quite frankly, I forgot all about asking Tim to take Rod’s motor up there, but with Rudman passing through right on schedule, it wasn’t a big deal.

So here we all were, meeting up at Summit Sheet Metal…Father Time, Madman Rudman, Plasma Boy, and Marko Mongillo.
More from Jim:

I’d really like to stress here that there are some folks out west that are really pushing to ready their EV’s for the May Illinois race and for any of you who might be teetering on the fence to make the effort and attend.  Wayland I know has never been that far east with WZ, and I know EVeryone here is pumped about the Event!
Here’s the deal. Marko is planning a major cross-country trip in Baby Blue. The plan is to have the pickup all finished in time for a car show Tim, he, and I are part of at Mt. Hood Community College on May 5th. For the trip eastward, we’ll place my 10 kw generator in the bed of Baby Blue, along with a PFC 50 charger… a series hybrid for level ground cruising, and relying on stout battery power for climbing the Rockies. With all the recent talk here on EVDL about generators and all, this is a pretty timely project, don’t you think?

From David Roden:

When you add a genset, you have a series hybrid.  The energy conversions involved make it a real challenge to attain high fuel efficiency using this scheme.  It’s not impossible, but a garden variety consumer genset - intended to supply backup power for a few hours during a grid failure - is probably not going to get anywhere close…

Good points, David. We’d certainly like to have a beefier unit, say a 15 kw model, but we have to use what we have available, so we’re cutting it thin with the 10 kw unit I have. To reduce rolling resistance and minimize cruise current needed, we’re going through the entire truck’s rolling gear and have already found thick, sticky grease caked in the rear axle instead of slippery thin gear oil…yikes! The rear axle is getting a thorough cleaning, all new bearings, and thin but effective gear oil. The front hubs and bearings are also getting the work-over with new bearings and all. The front end will be aligned. Finally, thinner high pressure (lower rolling resistance) truck radials similar to the kind Dick Finley and I used on Red Beastie, will replace the low profile, fat street rod tires that don’t roll so well right now. When done, I expect the 276V truck will use about 35 amps (with the 250 lb. generator in back) to cruise at 60 mph or so.

To plan for the worse, Rudman is allowing us to bring his T-Rex as a drop-in backup controller, and I’ll have my spank’n new PFC50X, my experimental 75+ amp charger the Madman and Smalley have been tweaking for me, as a backup to the PFC50 we’ll be using. It should be quite an eventful trek for Marko and his tough Datsun pickup. It will be fun to see how well the truck can pull the steep mountain grades we’ll encounter.

Once we’re at our destination, the exciting electric races in Joliet, Il, while Tim Brehm handles driving White Zombie, I’ll have fun running Marko’s Baby Blue down the track. No, we don’t expect it to set any new records, but having yet another EV to actually race on the track will add to the excitement of the races.

I’ll be posting pictures of the reconversion process to the Plasma Boy website soon.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

Doesn’t the CVT version get lower gas mileage than the standard?

If so, why would you want to use something that lowers your fuel efficiency?

Peter, I’m disappointed, as it appears you must have hit the ‘delete’ key and not read my many posts about this topic over the past couple of years   The CVT has nothing to do with the drop in mileage of the Insight equipped with it.

To recap….At the time Honda and Toyota were introducing the hybrids to the US market, they were in very stiff competition with each other over the new idea of mass marketed hybrids:

(1) Honda caught Toyota with their pants down, big time (even Toyota admits this) when they brought the Insight to the US market a full year ahead of the Prius (even though Prius was marketed elsewhere at the time). Only available as a 5 speed manual at first, the Insight achieved a ULEV status while also getting a staggering 70 mpg EPA rating! The 5 speed Insight uses lots of tricks to achieve super high, previously un-heard of mpg levels including its all aluminum body, super aero shape, its lowered stance, and of course, the whole hybrid-electric assist thing, but it also employs a special lean burn ultra light weight (124 lbs.) 3 banger engine that helps it achieve this mpg (my personal 5 speed Insight logs 90+ mpg easily at 62 mph constant speed and gets in the 80 mpg range without any special effort). Using lean burn though, makes it hard to control NOx emissions, thus the ULEV instead of SULEV rating.

(2) To trump Honda, when Toyota finally got around to introducing the US to the Prius, though its mileage was nowhere close to the two seater all aluminum Insight, it did seat four and was still able to get in the 55-60 mpg range while boasting a cleaner SULEV rating. Though actually transmission-less, the Prius’ automatic nature of its drive train (no shifting required) made it unpopular to those who prefer to shift, but very popular for those who prefer automatic trannys.

(3) To fight back, Honda introduced the CVT option for the Insight (and the Hybrid Civic). To match the Prius’ automatic nature, Honda also had it now with the CVT, and to match the SULEV rating, Honda dropped the lean burn capability on only the CVT model Insight. They ended up with the SULEV rating they wanted, but the car’s stellar 70 mpg EPA rating fell to 56 mpg. Many who don’t know this stuff, explain away the drop in mileage as being the fault of the CVT. In reality, the CVT Honda uses is as efficient (perhaps even more efficient) as the 5 speed…it’s the lack of lean burn mode that made the mileage plummet to the level of the Prius.

There are things one can do to keep their 5 speed Insight to keep it from shifting into its lean burn mode while driving, and when you do so, the 5 speed Insight gets pretty much identical mileage to its brother the CVT Insight. In terms of acceleration power, the CVT Insight is a dead match to the 5 speed Insight, so kudos to the efficiency thing for the CVT….it doesn’t rob the car of acceleration power at all.

For a time, I owned two Insights at the same time, my silver 2000 5 speed and a red 2001 CVT:

(1)  In my 5 speed, as you get up to cruising speed and slightly let off the gas to level your speed off, there’s a cool feeling you get as you watch the informative dash display and see the instantaneous mpg readout flutter at around 65-70 mpg, then suddenly it pops up to 90-110 mpg as you also feel a bit of a floating-like push of the car as its high tech 3 banger makes the hyper mileage jump into lean burn…very cool, very entertaining, and something all of us talk about that are fortunate enough to own one of these amazing machines. Then as road terrain goes up and down slightly, instead of the mpg going up and down, you see the dash indicator for the electric motor assist coming and going as it fills in the voids where, because of the lean burn’s lack of torque, the engine needs a little help…again, very cool and fun.

(2) In my CVT Insight, as you got up to cruising speed and slightly let off the gas to level your speed off, that cool feeling I get with my lean burn car is gone, and the instantaneous mpg readout just continues to flutter at around 65-70 mpg, never popping up to 90-110 mpg level, and that cool floating-like push of the car at the hyper mileage jump into lean burn never happens   As road terrain goes up and down slightly, you still see the dash indicator for the electric motor assist coming and going to help out, but not nearly as often because the 3 banger is in a more normal fuel-air ratio so torque is improved slightly, and, the CVT does an excellent job of keeping the ICE in its sweet spot. As a side bar, I was never, ever able to even get close to the same gas mileage as my 5 speed Insight, but I was able to hit 72 mpg on one 200 mile trip. On that same trip where my wife was following me in the 5 speed car, she got 86 mpg.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to Damon and All,

damon henry wrote:

Well, I have to admit I did not know that (I quit following the Honda Hybrid list a few years ago)

You don’t have to follow the Honda Hybrid list, all you have to do is stay current with regular car magazines. Pretty much all of them have featured the latest improvements and changes of the new hybrids. The big news is that Honda’s latest version of the Civic Hybrid can run a few miles on electric power only, just like the Prius does. Compared to Toyota’s complex trio of an electric motor-generator, a generator, and an ICE all coupled together via sun-planetary gears, Honda gets it done in a far simpler, more elegant way with their IMA system (integrated motor assist) with just the one motor-generator (less than 3 inches thick) sandwiched between the tranny and the flywheel and sharing the ICE crankshaft…no extra gears, no convoluted electrical-mechanical swapping of power and loads.

>…but in my defense the particular engine being sold appears to be from an 05 Civic

That’s why I qualified that my comments were for the new 2006 model.

See Ya…John Wayland

Hello to All,

damon henry wrote:

Yes, the only time the Honda system moves with the gas motor turned off is if gravity and/or momentum are on your side.  The electric drive will not work without the ICE running.

From: cowtown@spamcop.net

I know the Toyota setup uses a separate motor, but doesn’t the Honda “IMA”
system have to have the engine running to use electric drive?

Damon, you disappoint me   You need to get up to speed, dude! The 2006 Honda hybrids will in fact, run on battery power alone. They do it, just the way I predicted they would 5 years ago. They close the valves in the engine, cut off the injectors, and let the stuff all spin along with the electric motor. Having all the valves closed amounts to the same thing as having them all open, in that there is very little drag against the electric motor, probably not any more drag than the Prius’ drag caused by the planetary arrangement they use.

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Just wanted to remind everyone who receives the Discovery channel, that our own Rich Rudman and Shawn Lawless will be on TV tonight on the Monster Garage show. Should be a hoot! My local TV listing has it on at 8:00 pm west coast time.

I met the guy who does the voice over for the show while we had White Zombie on display at the Rod & Custom show this past February. He was excited to tell me that he was scheduled to do his part for the show the following Monday. He was pretty pumped up over doing this episode, and told me seeing White Zombie and the drag racing videos of it jerking the tires off the ground and blowing off muscle cars took him by surprise. I think we helped prime the pump for him to be really excited about the electric Chevy Rich and Shawn helped build.

See Ya…..John ‘Monster Garage rejectee’ Wayland

Hello Osmo and All,

Osmo S. wrote:

DC vs AC … what about sepex, PM, BLDC and whatnot. Do they all belong in the category of DC? Or does DC stand for a brushed series wound motor only. If so, why aren´t the others hardly ever discussed in this group?

When talking EV sized brushed wound field type motors, it is generally assumed that they are series-wound types. They don’t have to be, they could also be shunt wound, sepex, or PM types.

BLDC (brushless DC) motors are as complicated to control as AC motors are, in that they require an inverter or they cannot run. A BLDC is really an AC motor who’s inverter is generally built into the motor case. It’s an AC motor that has no brushes but you feed it raw DC power…hence brushless DC.  Once the power gets into the motor it’s routed through an inverter that converts it to three phase AC. Most are synchronous types where the rotor is a permanent magnet, so they have different characteristics compared to induction type AC motors. Today’s BLDC motors have changed and many now have three feed wires that get power from an external inverter. To me, I call this an AC motor, but the companies that build these still insist on calling them BLDC….go figure! In a nutshell, a BLDC motor is essentially an AC motor, thus an EV BLDC system with EV levels of power have the same high cost as the induction type AC systems. Unique Mobility makes EV sized BLDC systems, but I think they’re priced in the $20k range. I rode in a Humvee powered by four Unique Mobility 100 hp BLDC motors, it was incredible! At $20k, you can see why we don’t talk much about them or use them often.

On a much, much smaller scale, I do own an EV that’s powered by a BLDC motor, it’s my very early model Curie board scooter. When other scooters of the period (pre-2000) were still stuck in 12V land, had a PM motor that ran at 57% efficiency with a binary controller (an on-off switch) and used a friction drive or belt drive, this one ran at 24V, had a chain drive, and employed Curie’s own design BLDC motor at about 95% efficiency with variable throttle control due to the built-in inverter-controller on the backside of the motor. Scooters back then were rated at 15 miles range per charge, but in reality got about 6-7 miles before needing a recharge. My Curie was rated at 12 miles per charge and easily did it. It was also way faster on top end, and off throttle it coasts forever so you only need to blip the throttle once in a while to cruise along. After a few mile son a regular PM 12V scooter, the motor got very hot to the touch, but the Curie BLDC feels barely warm. Today, I have five board type scooters, but my favorite is still my original Curie with its BLDC motor. I just bought a new 36V Curie that has a real disc brake, and full suspension and all, but the disappointing factor is its PM brushed motor. It even has the warning ‘Caution, motor gets hot!’ I assumed when I ordered this scooter, it would be an upgraded version of my trusty Curie …not!

As to sepex and PM, yes, these are considered to be good ‘ol DC motors. There aren’t many large PM motors readily available in road going EV sizes, and a PM of this size would not have the ultimate low end torque of a series wound type, thus, they are not popular. Sepex are also, not readily available and they require more complicated controllers. Randy Holmquist of Canadian EV has rewound Kostovs that are turned into sepex types. Jim Husted could also turn any motor into a sepex type. Sepex have really taken over in the forklift industry and with gear ratios changed to improve low end torque making them on par with series wound types, they work very well, with the added plus of very controllable regen.

Hope this helps…

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Mike Phillips wrote:

The biggest thing that bugs me about most DC systems is the huge
amount of current the battery’s have to supply just to leave a stop
light. That’s hard on everything involved.

Huge amount of current just to leave a stop light? Where do you get that from? The average 144V-192V DC systems do not have to use ‘huge currents’ just to leave a stop light. My 156V car takes just 50-100 amps to leave a stop light at speeds matching traffic flow. In order to match the not-too-exciting 100 kw AC system’s ‘maximum’ leave the stop light capability, it still only takes about 300 hundred amps through a transmission, something most everyone uses with these DC systems. The huge currents (really not all that huge) only come into play when one wishes to demonstrate the 144V-192V DC system’s 6-7 second 0-60 acceleration capabilities, such as when wanting to dust off one of those lower powered 100 kw AC systems   Using quality AGM batteries (wimpy gel cells need not apply) like Optimas, Hawkers, or Orbitals, the high currents are not a problem at all, in fact, these tough batteries seem to thrive under such treatment…witness my Optimas that finally died after 6.5 years of nearly constant high current acceleration blasts! Witness the Exide Orbitals that never, ever failed under repeated 1/4 mile drag strip runs. Witness the Hawkers in White Zombie that never, ever failed throughout the 2005 racing season.

With most AC systems you
need higher voltage to get the watts up, but the battery pull 500 amps
max on the high powered systems I am familiar with. Many limit to 200
amps. That makes battery and interconnect choices easier.

You can get the exact same results in a high voltage DC system, so I find this comparison you’ve made interesting, because it’s an apples to oranges thing. High voltage AC to low voltage DC? If you want the low current battery thing you ’seem’ to be saying is the AC’s advantage, then simply run a high voltage DC system….you know, apples to apples.

In White Zombie, at 348V, it only takes about 50 amps from the battery pack to accelerate as a normal car does in average street driving, and it takes a whopping 20-25 amps to cruise at 55-60 mph. Driving as if I were in a 96V Rabbit or a Solectria Geo Metro, the car uses about 40 amps from the batteries to accelerate up to speed. The difference of course, is that my high power DC setup gives me the option of pulling 1000 amps from the high voltage pack (if I so deem it necessary and have it programmed the max battery amps this way) for extreme acceleration, something the 100 kw AC system you are comparing to, cannot remotely achieve.

The beauty of the 144V-192V DC systems is that you can afford these, they give superior acceleration when compared to the 100 kw AC systems that are double the cost, and using quality AGM style batteries, in particular the three brands I’ve mentioned that have a proven track record (pun intended), there really are no cabling or connector issues.

The only AC failure I’ve ever known was when the 12v accessory battery
got hooked up backwards

The AC powered S-10 (Hughes Dolphin 50 kw) I had in my possession years ago failed, big time. The repair would have been so expensive that the truck was salvaged by the owners instead of being repaired. A DC truck would have been back on the road at minimal cost. The AC systems Victor (Metric Mind) sells have a very good reliability record.

It seems odd that you would favor an AC system at twice the cost, twice…because it ‘bugs you’ to pull high amps from a battery pack, when a DC system at the same voltage does the same thing while also giving you far more available power at far less dollars.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Michaela Merz wrote:

Hmm .. I think we all agree that a blown DC controller can cause some
problems. What about doing something about it? …a secondary system monitoring motor voltage and shut the system down if something seems to be wrong?….a way (for an electronic circuit) to know the difference
between a PCM signal and a constant DC on the motor? It could trigger the
mains before the driver knows that the controller went south….ways to detect this kind of dangerous conditions and to prevent a ‘runaway’ car

It’s already been done…it’s called a Zilla with Hairball.

All Zillas are controlled by the Hairball interface. First and foremost, Cafe Electric builds the most reliable DC power stage ever, period! His power stages simply don’t blow, that in itself is amazing, but when you consider the very high up-to 2000 amp currents (even the ’small’ one kicks out 1000 amps!) and the industry leading up-to-348 volts and they still don’t blow, is incredible! Lesser controllers have a hard enough time managing 500 amps and 156 volts The Zilla controllers power the worlds quickest electric drag cars, and don’t blow even under these extremes.

I’ve got credibility here and have ‘been there, done that’ in regards to blowing things up. The 5300 lb. Red Beastie electric Toyota truck Dick Finley and I put together was the ultimate test bed for seeing how robust controllers were. With a 2500 lb. battery pack capable of running the truck for hours on end at high average currents and at very high currents during hill climbing events, it ate 6, count ‘em, 6 controllers! Having been involved in too many conversions to list over my 26 years of EVing, I’ve blown up more controllers than most, believe me. I think my ‘We blow things up, so you don’t have to’ mantra was part of Otmar’s inspiration to make his Zilla line of controllers bullet proof (or would that be plasma proof?). The original Godzilla controller used to set world records in White Zombie never failed, ever. It lived through everything I threw at it, including the melt-down of the armature in the 11 inch Kostov under full power. It’s still in perfect condition and awaits its new owner (I’ll let him tell everyone when he’s ready).

In the very unlikely event of a Zilla power stage failure, the Hairball instantly drops out the contactors, and in many circumstances, it will sense a problem ‘before’ the power stage can blow and not allow any contactors to pull in.  Old fashioned Curtis controllers don’t have this feature, nor do many other old tech designs. I was at Oat’s side when he was first working on the Hairball interface, and even gave him my input on his ideas for its features and multitude of protection circuits…even threw some of my own ideas at him   The prototype interface was a mess of tangled wires strewn all over the place as he was first conceiving the idea, looking very much like what the cat coughs up…hence, Hairball.

DC controllers ‘can’ be every bit as safe and automatic in their control systems as any AC system, the Hairball/Zilla combo is proof.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Zilla biased (for good reasons) and sponsored by Cafe Electric

Hello to All,

I always enjoy the AC vs DC debate. One point very rarely brought up though, is what you get in terms of performance in return for your dollars invested, especially when the price of the AC system hovers in the $8000-$10,000 range. Yes, a  68 kw AC system can be had for about $6000, but that’s on the low side of power for a conversion and is more comparable in power to older tech 120V DC systems. To get up to the power level of today’s common 144V-156V DC systems being used that easily top 100 kw, the AC system will cost you closer to $8000.  For $8000-$10,000, you get an AC system with about 100-130 kw of power. For the same dollars for DC….listen up newbies and pro AC folks,  you get up to 600 kw!!!! I’m talking about raw power that can be easily had with a Zilla Z2K, stout AGM batteries, and either one BIG DC motor or a pair of DC motors.  Now, in real life, due to the fact that batteries sag under high current loads, no one that I know presently has actually gotten their 600 kw of power delivered in their EV, but I do know that 350 kw has been had We’re talking about THREE times the power for the same price…I’ll repeat….THREE times the power for the same price! Not just two times the power, THREE times the power!

From Metric Mind’s web page, specialists on AC systems (good folks to do business with) comes this statement:
>Zilla 2K comes to mind….with a DC motor becomes $6100, just $800 less than a complete AC solution (100 kw).

It goes on to admit that even the Z1K at half the power of the Z2K still has more power than this AC system, but the power level thing is down-played. The problem I have is where the Z2K, a 600 kw system is compared to the 100 kw AC system, where this part is left out…..The Z2K Zilla package delivers SIX times the power for the same price (if a powerful enough battery pack is used) and in practical terms, it delivers THREE times the power!

A nice 100-130 kw AC system ‘can’ match the power delivery of the average gas car, but so can an affordable 100-130 kw DC system.
The big difference in this power range, is that a simple pack of just 13 AGM 12V batteries (156V) and a Zilla Z1K will easily make 130 kw of delivered power. Here’s the approximate cost to do this….$2000 for the Z1K LV model, $1450 for 13 Optimas or Orbitals, and $1600 for a 9 inch DC motor, for a total 130 kw package of $5050. A 100-130 kw AC system will cost you about $7000, but to run it to the power level of around 100 kw, you need a 300V battery pack. That pack will cost twice as much as the 156V pack for the DC system, even if you run smaller AGM batteries so that the overall pack weight is the same (same approx. range) as the 13-battery DC pack. So, for $7000 for the inverter-motor combo and $2800 of batteries you are up to $9800! We’re looking at twice the cost for the same level of performance. When using battery management modules, the cost of these is doubled with the 300+V AC system, too.

Am I dissing AC? Of course not. I love AC. My Insight has it, many of the forklifts I work on have it, and one of my favorite EVs I’ve driven, the EV1 had it. From time to time, I think about converting Blue Meanie to a 130 kw AC system. After all, I already have a really fast DC Datsun 1200, why not have a little regen fun and do the other 1200 as an AC system? The only problem I have is price for what you get in return. With similar weight lead acid battery packs, I’ll pit my DC powered car to ‘any’ AC powered car in terms of range per charge, 0-60 acceleration, top speed, and over-all fun factor. On the other hand, a direct drive AC Blue Meanie with a higher tech battery pack is a fun concept.

From time to time, I get to hang out with Victor (Metric Mind). A few weeks ago, he and I got together at his place. I found myself smiling at his latest AC system with a very compact inverter module and a motor that was, well, more ‘motor-like’ than some of his other square AC motors. It screamed ‘Blue Meanie’ at me. I also nearly tripped over stacks of Ovonic NiMH batteries, the same models that were  used in the EV1 I drove for 140 miles per charge years ago! I was thinking a set of them and that nifty compact AC system would turn Blue Meanie into a 150 mile per charge machine, while still maintaining ‘respectable’ performance. Alas…..it would cost about $10,000 to get these toys.

For now, I’ll be putting a pack of Hawkers into Blue Meanie to get it back to snuff (the 6.5 year old Optimas are finally ready to be recycled). Until I take the AC plunge, I guess I’ll have to settle for 0-60 in six seconds, a 120+ mph top speed, and the ‘city driving only’ range of 25 miles per charge (unless I get some really new model Hawkers I’m not supposed to talk about yet).

Kudos to Victor for helping to make AC systems available to backyard converters. It’s great to have these systems available at more reasonable prices than the $20-$30k systems of the late 90’s!

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

Electro Automotive wrote:

We don’t recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do we recommend above 144V on the 9″ motor.

I’ve run Blue Meanie’s ‘properly advance timed’ ADC 9 inch motor at 156V for I think, 10 years now. Not a single motor problem, and the original brushes are at around 75% still. Many others, like John Bryan and his 192V Ghia with its XP super torque’n 8 inch ADC motor, have also not had any problems at all….nor has Bill Dube’s 192V Wabbit…this list could go on and on.
>Your privilege.  But I sell these and have to warranty them.  I want the factory backing >me up.
Shari, perhaps you are unaware, that  ADC left Corbin hanging when their 8 inch motors all started to burn up, due to how they shipped them at neutral timing, then didn’t back their product up. They immediately blamed everyone else, including the controller designers who’s output stages toasted when the motor arced to death. Funny thing (just using your own words, Shari)…when the owners of Corbin Sparrows advanced the timing, magically, all their motor and controller problems vanished. Damon Crocket’s DC Power Systems left the road going EV market over the Corbin fiasco after losing lots of money trying to do the right thing by warranting their Raptor 450 controllers that were burning up due to ADC’s improperly-timed motors that were fire-balling.

I have this funny idea of knowing the manufacturer (ADC) isn’t smart enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees so that their motors will run properly for the market they sell them for…EVs.

>I would love to see you tell Gary Dieroff to his face that he isn’t smart enough to build >a motor properly.
Shari, please at least quote me accurately. I said “(ADC) isn’t smart enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees” I never said they weren’t smart enough to build a motor properly. They once did ship them properly timed, then, when Gary was less involved in the whole EV motor business, they without warning anyone, began shipping motors timed at neutral without the ability to change timing holes. Actually, I’d love to talk again with Gary. I’ve talked with him face to face before, and had no problems talking straight talk with him. He’d more than likely want my input, as he did back in ‘96 when he was amazed at the power I was extracting from his 9 inch motor back then. We talked for some time track side, about proper motor timing and how the ADC 9 inch had the ability to run at higher voltages when properly timed.  I doubt you ever have similar ‘high performance’ conversations with him over 96V conversions, though

Can you say Corbin Sparrow?

That’s Corbin’s problem, not ADCs.  The Sparrow had problems with several drive systems.
Shari, you need to get your information correct before presenting it as fact. The Corbin Sparrows had drive problems ’specifically’ with every motor controller they used, until motor timing was corrected that stopped arcing. ADC was silent about their culpability in this. I had to personally drill and tap a Sparrow motor for a friend who had one to advance the timing. Guess what? After the mods were done, the car stopped blowing controllers due to arcing caused by ADC’s motors they sold that were shipped at neutral timing! The car also accelerated far better, too.

Add in the fact that most of the Electro Automotive designs feature very heavy conversions with lower than average power, and you are asking the motor to work under even more duress. Most of the Electro Automotive designs use the squealing Curtis controller

Here we go again.  I’ve never heard the Curtis squeal except backing out of a parking space, when it serves nicely as a pedestrian warning.  In forward motion, I accelerate through that low speed squeal too quickly to notice it.
Perhaps your hearing is impaired? Review the EVDL archives of all the complaints from EVers, especially those who were embarrassed at parade events, EV car shows, etc. over comments about the noise their Curtis powered EVs made.

(Yes, even in my pitiful low voltage, low current car, I can accelerate that quickly!)

Prove that,  please. Please show data on the 0-60 of your 96V Rabbit conversion. At the sagged voltage under the 500 amps that squealer makes, you’ve got 40 hp to move 2900 lbs…..yeah, I bet it really hauls! I’d bet you’ve never, ever, drag raced it on a track with real timing devices. I’ll help you out here… My guess, is that it would have a 2.5 second 60 ft., that the 0-60 would take 17-19 seconds, and that top speed on level ground might be a real 85 mph, given several miles to get there.

And as for low performance, I have more often been held back in a 96V Rabbit by slow gas cars than vice verse. I have even passed gas cars going uphill….Sweeping generalizations about “most people” are usually misleading.

And you talk about sweeping, generalized statements? This hardly backs up your talk. Try hard facts, please. Try it like this….

The stock 1981 Rabbit weighs 1775 lbs., has 74 hp, and takes 12.6 l-o-n-g seconds to get to 60 mph. In today’s terms when the average economy car does the 0-60 run in 8-9 seconds (even the squeaky clean running 70+ mpg Honda Insight does it in 10.4 seconds), a 13 second 0-60 time is considered s-l-o-w! Keep in mind, this is for the light weight gas version…I haven’t gotten to your  2880 lb. EV conversion yet.

Now, pull the gas engine out that weighs 220 lbs. and the light weight gas tank and fuel lines and such, and you ‘might remove $250 lbs. of stuff. Now, put in the ADC 9 inch at 143 lbs., the adapter set to mate it to the tranny at ~ 30 lbs., a controller and braketry at 20 lbs., and the brackets and cabling for for all the batteries at around 50 lbs., and you just negated the weight you removed. Now, add in 16, 70 lb. batteries and you’ve added 1120 lbs. to the car. 1775 lbs. + 1120 lbs. gets you 2895 lbs. (100 lbs. more than Shari’s claimed 2880 lbs.) Now, most Rabbits weighed more, as in the 1983 version that weighed 2000 lbs……2895 lbs. + 225 ‘1983′ extra lbs., and the car now weighs 3120 lbs.  Gee Shari, sounds an awful lot like my quote “a 96V Rabbit, a small car that unfortunately weighs in at over 3000 converted lbs.”

Let’s just round the conversion weight to 2900 lbs. and give Shari the nod here. Shari, again, please give the 0-60 time of a 2900 lb. car with 40 hp to move it, compared to a 1775 lb. car with 74 hp that we know does 0-60 in 12.6 seconds, and that is generally regarded by all automotive testers, experts, and drivers to be very slow in terms of acceleration power.

And the poor ADC 9″/Curtis 20×6V Voltsporsche?  90+mph. Yeah, pretty sad and inadequate.

Actually, it is when you consider several things….like how long it takes to ‘finally’ arrive at 90 mph, as in the 0-60 time of probably 16 seconds, and as in how it slows on steep hills struggling with all the extra weight (1400 lbs.  of lead) and only 50 hp to drag it all up said hill.

Rant:
There are a lot of different kinds of people who drive EVs.    This means “most people you hang out with”, which is generally a like-minded group, a subset of the EV universe, not the whole.

Actually, I like to compare EV performance to the gas cars we all want to replace them with, something you seem to nicely avoid when talking about 96V conversions.

If we could refrain from calling other people’s well-loved conversions “dogs”, “slugs”, “underpowered”, and similar slurs and recognize that satisfactory performance is very subjective, then I will continue to refrain (as I have until this moment) from comments about testosterone poisoning and cars as penile prosthetics.

End Rant

Whew….thank god the rant stopped!

Shari, you triggered my post when you used the disrespectful wordage “We have this funny idea that we believe in following manufacture ratings…” in response to Jim Husted’s sincere and knowledgeable comments. Your tone was derogatory at best, and Jim certainly didn’t deserve the treatment.

You need to read what you write before taking a holier than thou stance as in the above comments. To be clear, I only referred to my car I once owned that I very appropriately named ‘Sluggo’. You’re now telling me I can’t name my own cars? I also quite accurately stated “most of the Electro Automotive designs feature very heavy conversions with lower than average power”.  Compared to the stock 1775 lb. Rabbit, a 2900 lb. Rabbit is a ‘heavy conversion’.  Compared to the 2000 lb. 914, your 120V conversion 914 at 3400+ lbs. is indeed, a heavy conversion. Your 96V Rabbits are slow, either compared to stock gas Rabbits (which can run off and hide from your conversion) or other Rabbit conversions with considerably better power to weight ratios. I also stated “a prescription for low performance” in regards to a 3000 lb. car with just 40 hp…no knowledgeable automotive person would call that anything but the honest truth. Apparently, you have a problem with an honest assessment of things like this?

If you want to talk about your conversions as being reliable, affordable, or in being adequate to get from point A to point B, that’s fine with me, and you’ll get no arguement.  Expousing the performace of heavy low voltage, low current conversions as comparable to gas cars though, is not wise, nor is challenging the opinions of expert electric motor folks like Jim Husted. You might just learn a few things from his 25+ years as a DC motor rebuilder.

Please, the slurs only came from you, Shari….”testosterone poisoning and cars as penile prosthetics”. I rest my case.

See Ya…John Wayland

Hello to Steve and All,

Steve wrote:

Books and internet research are one thing, but the experience of this list (plus my experience with 3 EVs) is priceless. I want you to have an idea what I was trying to accomplish, budget, and my performance expectations.  Also, I want to tell you what I am basing my calculations on.  Then, we can have an informed discussion.

I agree with your take about the cumulative knowledge that’s available here on the EVDL, and I like the clarity you’ve laid out.

First, what I am trying to do (design inputs)
1) Small, light weight commuter car.  Note, around here, a commuter car goes 45 - 50 MPH for 10 miles back and forth to work each way.  Why?  Smaller, lighter, etc. means more efficiency, less batteries, less weight to lug around, better handling, easier to fabricate, lower cost to build and maintain.
2) A 20 mile usable range, 365 days a year, rain or shine, hot or cold.  It gets down to the mid 20’s here and as high as the high 90’s.  Of course, for my calculations, the mid 20’s yield the worst case range.  I don’t want to kill the batteries, so I was planning on a 70% DOD max (nominal on the coldest day, 80% DOD absolute worst case on the coldest day if I have to make an extra stop on the way home).

The answer here is pretty simple, and it’s a tried and proven concept when talking about available, affordable lead acid
batteries. To get the range you’ve outlined with the 70% max depth of discharge, you need to follow this formula….when your EV is finished, the battery pack should be 1/3 the total weight of the vehicle. In other words, if the completed car weighs 3000 lbs. with the battery pack, then the pack should be 1000 lbs. To get your Festiva to fit this prescription, it would have to weigh around 1900-2000 lbs. stock,. The added electric motor, brackets, charger, and cables would pretty much equal the weight of the gas engine, exhaust system, gas tank, etc. you remove, so you’re still looking at around 1900-2000 lbs. Now you can clearly see that you need about 1000 lbs. of batteries to get that 1/3 battery weight target.

- 84 V pack - flooded lead acid - 6 V batteries (T125’s)

Perfect. 14 X ~ 75 lbs. = 1050 lbs. of batteries. This pack would be far cheaper than any 1000 lbs. of AGM type lead acid, and if you can keep average cruise currents low, the higher ahr of the flooded batteries will go a long ways towards best range per charge. However, at just 84 volts and a safe max discharge current for these flooded type 6 volters of about 500 amps, you’re never going to get the other goal you’ve outlined here:

I want GOOD ACCELERATION!  Better than the ICE version (which was very
slow).
At least as good as my Toyota Corolla with 1.8 L, 4 cylinder engine.  I’m
not asking for a drag car, but I need to keep up with the hectic traffic
here in
Atlanta.  If it can’t do that, I’m not wasting my time or money.

Pulling the 500 amps max. safe current from your 6V flooded batteries will cause the not-too-stiff 84V (nominal) pack of flooded batteries to sag down to around 65 volts. 65V X 500 amps = 32.5kw, or about 33 hp. Just 33 horsepower to move a 3000 lb. car, should make it pretty obvious this low of a voltage at 500 amps is not by any stretch of one’s imagination, going to give ‘good acceleration’. In fact, even if you doubled the amount to 66 hp, it still would only be ‘OK’ acceleration in a 1.5 ton vehicle. Maybe now, you can see why most everyone else these days, run at least 144V. At 144V and using low-sag AGM types 12V batteries, 1000 lbs. of them would only sag to maybe 125V at 1000 amps to give 125kw, or about 130 hp.

Back to your requirements of low cost though…..you ‘could’ still get by with the inexpensive 84V pack of golf car batteries and get ‘OK’ 0-40 mph acceleration, by spending a bit on the controller and dissing the old tech restrictive SCR controller…read this, get a Z1K Zilla. With this compact controller, you could dial-in 1000 motor amps and still keep the max. battery amps to 500. The controller will be able to boost the motor up to 1000 amps while its voltage goes from 0 - 40 volts as it revs up. After that, the motor amps would fall to keep the max. programmed battery amps at 500. This set up though, would protect the flooded batteries from over-current while still giving your 3000 lb. Festiva very decent low speed traffic type acceleration, probably not as quick as the 1800cc Corolla in the 0-40 sprint, but not too far behind. From 40-60 mph things would definitely be tame, but probably acceptable for your needs. This is beginning to look similar to your ‘option #4′.

To reduce costs in option #4, you could find a used EV motor, I would think for $300-$400 dollars if you looked hard enough and put out enough feelers. You could certainly find a 48V forklift traction motor for a few hundred bucks, and with simple timing adjustments, it would work very well. You could also build a basic charger with a timer shut-off for maybe $200.

My money would be on the 84V pack, the Zilla Z1K controller, a basic charger, and a used forklift or smaller EV motor. You’d end up with an affordable EV that has pretty good off-line acceleration, ‘OK’ 40-50 mph performance, and sluggish 50-65 mph performance. You also end up with an EV with a 30-45 mile range, depending on temperature and other conditions. I agree, keep the clutch.

Just my two cents worth….

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

From Jim Husted:  At only 84 volts I doubt you can feed a 9er.  Most people are running 2X to 3X the rated voltage of the motor.

Electro Automotive wrote:

Huh?  Maybe most people you know run 2x - 3x the motor’s rated voltage.  Maybe they are drag racers.  Maybe they melt motors.

Yes, guilty as charged as to the drag racer thing. This happens though, at the ‘very’ high voltages and ‘very high’ currents where we are pushing the performance and durability edge. On the other hand, with expert motor help from Jim Husted, so far, melted motors are a thing of the past for now.

We don’t recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do we recommend above 144V on the 9″ motor.

I’ve run Blue Meanie’s ‘properly advance timed’ ADC 9 inch motor at 156V for I think, 10 years now. Not a single motor problem, and the original brushes are at around 75% still. Many others, like John Bryan and his 192V Ghia with its XP super torque’n 8 inch ADC motor, have also not had any problems at all….nor has Bill Dube’s 192V Wabbit…this list could go on and on.

>We have this funny idea that we believe in following manufacture ratings, thus maintaining warranty.

I  have this funny idea of knowing the manufacturer (ADC) isn’t smart enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees so that their motors will run properly for the market they sell them for…EVs. Can you say Corbin Sparrow? I also have this funny idea of running an EV’s motor at higher voltages for far less average current to keep the motor running cooler, the com. and brushes lasting far longer, and for making power on order with what the gas version originally had (or even more).

I would suggest that running these motors at between 96V and 120V is probably way harder on them, than at higher voltages, because to get any semblance of acceptable power at these lower voltages, the average current needs to be way higher than when run at the higher voltage levels, thus more heat and com. damage. Add in the fact that most of the Electro Automotive designs feature very heavy conversions with lower than average power, and you are asking the motor to work under even more duress. Most of the Electro Automotive designs use the squealing Curtis controller only capable of 500 amps. On a 96V Rabbit, a small car that unfortunately weighs in at over 3000 converted lbs., considering 6V wet cell voltage sag under 500 amp draws, there’s only 40 kw of max power, or just 40 delivered hp to move 3000 lbs. of mass….argh! Talk about a prescription for low performance and an overheating motor!

The 108V Ford Escort conversion I used to own that I lovingly named ‘Sluggo’ had a 9 inch GE motor that got so hot I could barely touch it. With its low performance Curtis controller and low performance wet cell pack, this over weight 108V EV had miserable acceleration and hill climbing ability, and a motor that was always very hot due top high average currents at low voltages.

I find it rather amusing to hear Shari arguing motor durability with the likes of Jim Husted, a guy who’s adult life has been immersed in electric motor design and repair, a guy who makes his living working on all models of DC motors for EV use, and the guy who co-designed and built the world’s most powerful, the world’s quickest and fastest, and world record setting 8 inch DC motor!

See Ya……John ‘high voltage’ Wayland

Hello to All,

Roger Stockton wrote:

I think John’s concern is with adding *any* additional contacts and
wires into the motor loop due to their associated losses.

Correct.

As soon as the motors start spinning, the back EMF is going to make
their effective resistance great enough to make a few milliohms
difference in wiring resistance unimportant.

Yes, but it’s the all-important launch at the strip, where there’s very little back emf at first, that’s the most important area where any high current losses count, big time. I agree, once the car is moving along and the motors are spooled up, there would be very little difference caused by F-R contactors.

Look at it this way; Matt’s car is running the same controller as
John’s, and a pair of 9″ motors, and he is getting *very* respectable
performance (perhaps even better than John’s when you factor in vehicle
weight) even though he does have a reversing contactor in the motor
loop.

Yes, but if he were to rewire the motor(s) circuit more directly and leave all the cables and contacts for forward-reversing out of the loop, he’d probably pick up .2 - .4 seconds! That’s not important for everyday driving for sure, but for 1/4 mile drag racing and chasing after a record, it’s HUGE.

My concern would be that a reversing contactor relies on current flowing
though the NC and NO contacts depending on the direction selected, and
usually NC contacts are rated for less current than the NO set.

Again, correct. Otmar’s 914 has experienced this problem already. Here’s a car that pulls BIG currents all the time, as it’s his rolling Zilla test bed. The NC contacts that rely on spring pressure burn more quickly than do the NO contacts that are closed under more pressure from the magnetics of the coil.

I would
think that wiring the reversing contactor so that it must be energised
for forward “gear” so that the NO contacts carry the heavy race current
would be a good thing to do.

I thought about that as well, but it only adds even more 12V current to be draining all the time, and the default mode is having the car in reverse if the 12V power is interrupted to the forward-reversing set.

For vehicles trying to set world records or for those that already own the record and are chipping away at precious fractions of seconds, every little thing counts. I’ve found that eliminating the high current losses in the motor loop circuit has improved the car’s 60 ft. and 1/8 mile times. Having just one high extra high current contactor for the front motor (that would open the field circuit so that a smaller F-R set could reverse it) with the old dual motor setup, caused an unbalanced wear condition of the brushes and coms between the two motors. Where I got rid of that contactor, the problem went away, and the 1/8 mile times improved.

For vehicles that are mainly for street with setting world records a secondary concern, the reversing contactor sets work fine. If I were to suddenly retire White Zombie from track racing and turn it into a ’street only’ vehicle, I would have no problem installing F-R contactor sets. For now, where we are a mere .151 seconds away from hitting the 11’s, I’ll stick to having just fat 4/0 cables and thick copper bus bars inter-connecting the twin motor sections of the Siamese 8.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to Don and All,

I see my buddy Jim has already responded, but I’ll throw my two cents worth in as well.

Don Cameron wrote:

I am **very** interested in this DC siamese motor config of John’s and
Matt’s.

Cool. It’s not everyday where we see an AC guy who’s also interested in DC systems, especially high performance DC systems    Yes, the extreme power delivery of twin DC motors in a series-parallel and fed with 2000 motor amps is addicting. As Jim pointed out, currently, White Zombie’s Siamese 8 is the only one of its kind. I’m hoping there’ll be more to come, though.

Here is what I undestand so far (from what I have read here, the
archives and off the net):

- single Zilla 2K controller
- 300+ volts of high current batteries
- two 9″ Warp motors, mechanically in series, with the brushes advanced

Or….two 8″ ADC. Warp, GE, or whatever.

- no transmission, just a rear end (around 4.1:1)

Yes, no tranny. White Zombie runs with a 4:57 ratio and smallish (but big for a Datsun 1200) 24″ diameter rear tires. It still hits 106 mph in the 1/4 mile due to its expertly crafted 8 inch Siamese motor spinning at around 6800 rpm with so far, no apparent damage from high rpm (fingers still crossed) I am planning on a rear ratio change to in fact, a 4:11 to allow the car to hit 115-120 mph and stay within a safe rpm range. I believe there’s enough off-line torque, so that the taller gear set will not detract from the 1.59 60 ft. time it presently does with the 4:57 ratio.

- electrically the motors are initially series for lots of torque, then via
BF contactors (Bubbas) are switched to parallel for lots of power

When I did the ‘Afterburner’ bypass with the 240V pack of Orbitals, it was indeed, done with twin Bubbas. The controller was completely out of circuit at that point and the motors were connected in parallel directly to the pack….quite the rush when the button was hit! Now, with the 348V Z2K setup, I uses a trio of Albright SW200 contactors….one for the series connection, the other two for the parallel connection, Both modes are with the controller always in circuit.

- in series each motor only see half pack voltage (obviously)
- in parallel the motors can see full pack voltage, however this is limited
by the controller to 170V to prevent arc-over.
- about a 6000RPM redline on the 9″ motors

Yes, and as stated, 6800 rpm @ 106 mph. The car actually goes faster than this, and with the pedal still down as it flashes through the traps, the speed is still rising to probably 110 mph or close to 6900 rpm with the Siamese 8 before we get out of it.

So, a few questions:

- it appears there is going to be a lot of contactors if this is going to be
a street vehicle as well as a fast race car:
2 contactors for main power

I use one, plus a manual disconnect.

2 contactors for series-parallel switch

I assume you’re talking 2 reversing type contactors. It can be done with three SP/ST contactors as well.

1 contactor for reverse (or is it two?)

With twin motors, it’s one reversing set per motor.

- how does one switch from series to parallel? If it was just the
contactors, that would be understandable, but it appears to be controlled
from the Zilla controller.

Actually, it’s controlled by the Zilla’s Hairball, not the Zilla itself. It can be done automatically by virtue of full throttle and the current ramping down to 1/2 the max selected current, or, with a manual control via a push button.

- is the series/parallel switched under full load?  Is it a real rough shift
(like drag race scarey - BANG?)

It doesn’t have to be when manually controlled, but if under automatic mode, yes….full throttle, yes, a big BANG with your  head against the seatback! For a more sane street driving experience, a manual control over the series-parallel contactors, where you switch them off throttle, results in very smooth operation that is seamless in effect with no banging, no tire squealing at switch-over.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

electric-plum@juno.com wrote:

As most of you know, Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, Illinois will be holding the HIGH VOLTAGE
NATIONALS May 13, 2006.

However, this might NOT happen if we don’t have at least 20 participants
racing in the EVent. Also, if you know any NEDRA  “record”
holder, have them contact me directly as we have a sweet deal for them.

Record holders that have committed so far are John Wayland, Bill Dube’,
Jack Knofp, Darin Gilbert, and Brigham Young Univ.

Yes, the Plasma Boy Racing Team will be there. You can add Father Time and one of his bikes, too.

This is your chance
to rub elbows and fenders with the best in their class. HVR’s “Aggravated
Battery” dragster will also be there.

Where’s all your own local EVers? Surely with such a prominent race in their own back yard, you can get at least 10 more EVs from the area….right? I’m doing some arm-twisting to get more EVs to the EVent, too.  Rudman keeps talking about his fast Fiero…maybe I’ll shame him into bringing it with us back east! Maybe Rod and or Rich could get Gone Postal up and running. It’s a record holder, so maybe some of that mileage seed money would help get it there as well. Who knows, maybe Victor would be interested in caravaning with us from Portland and bring the ACRX?

There is NO entry fee for any EV.    Prizes include trophies and cash
awards.

Bob Rice…yes, bring your bunny Rabbit! Anyone from the east coast wanna run against White Zombie? Come on everyone, this is going to be one fun EVent! Matt, Lowell, Steve? You guys from Florida have got some hot machines now…come on, make the commitment and join up with us in the Chicago area! Bob Salem, could you make it with your minitruck from Columbus? That would be yet another hot electric to wow the crowd!

Looking forward to the trek eastward….

See Ya….John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Hello to All,

A good ‘ol comparo is just the thing to put an exclamation mark on Matt’s recent achievement of blasting through the 1/4 mile in just 13.3 seconds, so I thought I’d educate those who may not be into performance cars, on just how powerful and quick Matt Grahm’s ‘Joule Injected’ electric 240SX is.

Admissions:

(A) I’ll mostly reference relatively new gas cars, since older gas machines are nowhere near as clean running as an electric car is, though there are two representatives from the 60’s muscle car era. For the most part, it’s today’s lower emission type performance machines vs Matt’s zero emission electric car. Also, it’s generally known that today’s hi pro gas cars are quicker and faster than their legendary 60s era muscle car brethren, though old farts stuck in the past don’t often realize this   In fact, many of today’s hot 4 banger import machines can blow the doors off ‘most’ of the 60s era muscle cars, and they do it while passing stringent crash standards, clean air standards, and fuel economy standards, three categories the old muscle cars would all fail.

(B) Given two vehicles that run the same 1/4 mile ETs, one a gas car and the other an electric car, the electric is nearly always substantially quicker off the line and up 60 mph because of the electric motor’s huge torque at zero rpm. Thus, with  two cars that both run 13.5 seconds, the race goes like this…the electric jumps off the line and by 60 mph is perhaps 2-3 car lengths ahead of the gas car, by the end of the 1/8th mile the gas car is now picking up speed at a higher rate and is now pulling up on the electric, and by the end of the 1/4 mile, the gas car has caught the electric as they both flash through the traps. Both cars run the same ET, but the gas car has a higher top end speed, while the electric has a quicker 0-60…see how this works?

OK, on with the fun…..

(1) In recent years, to many folks’ astonishment, the once stodgy ‘old man’s car’ Cadillac has transformed it’s model lineup from blimped-out bulbous huge land yachts into America’s premium hi performance sedans. Today’s Caddys are muscular and fast and corner like sports cars. The top dog model is the CTS-V, a $52,000 400 hp road burner who’s borrowed-from-the-Z06 Corvette V8 jams it from 0-60 in 5 seconds flat and runs a 13.4 second 1/4 mile (2005 model). Road & Track magazine described it as having ‘explosive straight-line performance’. Guess what? Matt’s electric car beats it in the 1/4 mile! I estimate Matt’s car runs 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, too, so it toasts the Caddy here as well. If the Caddy has ‘explosive performance, I wonder how they’d describe Matt’s EV?

(2) OK you say, what about a real sports car? How about Porsche’s newest, the $70,000 Cayman S? This Boxter derivative with its midship-mounted 291 hp flat six rips 0-60 in 5.1 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds (2006 model)….Matt’s electric beats it in both 0-60 and the 1/4 mile run!

(3) How bout the new $35,000 2006 Charger R/T with its highly touted 350 hp Hemi V8? It too, would get roasted by Matt’s electric Nissan, since the Charger’s 0-60 of 5.9 seconds and its 14.1 second 1/4 mile ET are no match for Matt’s electric car.

(4) Just for fun, the 68 Charger R/T with a mighty 440 V8 rated at 375 hp (old hp rating) ran 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and managed a 14.9 second 1/4 mile ET. Lowell Simon’s electric Porsche would beat this car by a half second through the 1/4 mile! Matt’s car would be 1.6 seconds quicker…an eternity in 1/4 mile terms!

(5) Exotic? Try this….the $83,000 2003 Masserati Spyder GT has a 390 hp V8 and runs 0-60 in 5.0 seconds and has a 13.5 second ET.
What fun it would be, to find a well-healed dude in his Masserati, tell him your Japanese car has been converted to run on batteries, then leave him in the dust! Oh yeah, almost forgot to say it….Matt’s car beats this one, too.

(6) The $26,000 300 hp 2006 Mustang GT V8 runs 0-60 in an impressive 4.9 seconds and manages the 1/4 mile in 13.5 seconds, but it would get beat by Matt’s EV.

(7) In light of the above, the 68 390cid 335 hp V8 powered Mustang GT ran 0-60 in 7.8 seconds and did a 15.2 second 1/4 mile ET.

(8) The $32,000 2003 Subaru STi with its brawny 300 hp turboed flat four does 0-60 in just 4.9 seconds and runs a 13.3 second ET. OK, this car is a match for Matt’s EV, but the EV would still get it in the 0-60 run.

(9) The $50,000 2004 Audi V8 version of its S4 hi pro sedan, has 340 hp. It runs 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 14.0 seconds. Matt’s electric 240SX would blow its doors off.

(10) I saved this for last. The $36,000 Nissan 350Z sports car with its powerful 287 hp V6 runs 0-60 in 5.7 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 14.3 seconds. Matt’s electrified Nissan beats the new gas powered Nissan by a full second in the 1/4 mile!

I hope you all had fun reading this, and I hope those of you who may not always follow the EV drag racing stuff will now have a better appreciation for what guys like Matt are doing to keep EVs in the spot light. I bet there are a whole bunch of dazed gasser folks who are still stunned by what they saw an electric car do at the Moroso Race Track the other night!

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Hello to All,

While my friends across the USA in Florida are all ready tearing up the track, we’re still ramping up for the 2006 racing season. I’m happy to report that today, a pallet of 30 brand new Hawker AeroBatteries arrived at the dock of Northwest Handling Systems. I want to publicly thank Hawker, and especially Dick Brown of AeroBatteries for their unwavering support! Dick’s enthusiasm over our racing efforts has been awesome, and Hawker has been very generous in their sponsorship.

After a pretty heavy day of wrenching on forklifts with service calls all over the city, the stormy Spring day ended on a fun note as I and my ride-along younger tech arrived late returning to Northwest Handling System’s back equipment yard. There’s something very exciting about getting back as day’s light was fading away, opening the slider gate, and positioning my service truck to receive a load of feisty Hawkers. Unlocking the service shop’s doors (everyone had already gone home for the weekend) we went in to fetch the pallet of batteries. The fun started with me choosing one of countless powerful Crown electric reach trucks to do the deed. I chose an AC drive RR5225 stand-up rider-reach machine as the tool for the job at hand. Able to hoist 5000 lbs. straight up 25 feet with effortless ease, the 700 lbs. of AeroBatteries wasn’t much of a challenge for the powerful Crown Still, loading 700 lbs. of batteries by hand would have been a lot of work. I drove the load outside down a ramped grade, and then positioned the forklift at the rear of my service truck. Using the Crown’s multifunction handle I raised the load, side-shifted the carriage to perfectly center the pallet, then used the reach function to extend the batteries into the back of my service truck…the hefty Isuzu truck barely noticed the extra 700 lbs. in back. There’s something very cool about using an electric vehicle to load batteries for my electric vehicle!

The batteries are now at my home, still in the back of the service truck parked in the shop driveway. Tomorrow, I’ll fire up my own electric forklift and use it to retrieve the pallet of batteries…more EV fun!

With a brand new pack and the other mods we’ve got planned, 2006 should be a fast year for Plasma Boy Racing!

See Ya……John Wayland

Rich Rudman wrote:

OOOOOOoooo!
Looks like Matt Graham  is the first into the Madman’s 100 for 2006. He beat
Wayland!.

Madman.

Uh….Madman, not to try to take ‘anything’ away from Matt’s accomplishment, but duh….our track doesn’t even open until late April
Living in the same Pacific Northwest area as I do, you of all people should know this. Unlike balmy Florida, we have to wait for drag racing weather to return after the Winter’s ice and snow, and the early Spring’s rains are behind us.

By the way, when will ‘you’ make it into your own Madman’s 100? 

See Ya…John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Way to go, Matt and Lowell!

Hello to All,

Charles Whalen wrote:

Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons for their outstanding
performances at Moroso Racetrack in West Palm Beach last night!

I second that!

Lowell set a new world record of 14.55 seconds in Miramar High School’s Porsche 944,
beating the previous record by almost 2 seconds!

14’s is moving! There’s many classic muscle car guys that would be seeing Lowell’s EV’s taillights!

Matt Graham also made history in his Nissan 240SX by being only the third (full-bodied) car ever
to break the 100mph barrier in the quarter mile!

Yes, that’s terrific, but the slightly lower speed run of 99 mph was done in a stunning 13.3 second blast! We’re talking just 3/10ths away from running 12s!!! I predicted Matt’s machine could run 12’s….stay tuned, it’s only a matter of time. A near 3000 lb. EV running low 13’s?? That’s quite an accomplishment.

See Ya…….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Dmitri Hurik wrote:

Ok, not exactly EV, but if anybody could help that would be cool. I need an AGM battery for starting an ICE lawnmower that has low self-discharge and long life. Probably around the 12-14ah range. I looked at the Hawker Odyssey 13ah.

You’d be hard-pressed to find a better quality battery.

They claim it’s really tough….

They are ‘extremely’ tough. Search the EV list archives for my many posts about ‘the Amazing Hawkers’, and many posts from others reporting the same.

>can sustain being left at 0% charge for weeks/months and still recover ….

Hmmm…that’s a tall claim. I ‘have’ had this exact battery taken down to zero volts and left there for three months, and upon a recharge, it came back without any cell reversals. Now, did it still have the same capacity? I doubt it. You can’t get away from permanent sulfation.
In general, it’s never good for any lead acid battery to do this.

>and sit for years…

This is absolutely true with Hawkers. I have quite a few 8 year old Hawker 16 ahr versions that have been sitting for long lengths of time that still work well. Again though, there is going to be some permanent sulfation that will occur if you let a battery sit so long unused and uncharged, so they really can’t sit for years and power-up to 100% capacity.

….but for $80+ seems like a bit much for just a 13ah battery.

Not when that same battery can deliver 500+ amps repeatedly without any noticeable degradation of the battery! 28 of the slightly larger 16ahr version of this battery powered my race car at 750 amps for 13 seconds to a world record back in 2000. Hawker toughness and long life are legendary on this EVDL. The internal inter-cell straps are very robust and can sustain high currents without melting. Small Hawker batteries can deliver HUGE currents and are worlds away from ordinary batteries of the same size and weight. All of these traits may not be applicable for you though, for merely starting a lawnmower.

Speaking of Hawker, what are people’s general opinion on Hawker batteries?

See my web page about White Zombie, for how I feel about Hawker batteries:

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Jimmy wrote:

This is a question for you guys that like to do mega burn-outs.

OK, I guess that qualifies me

Are there any tips on
materials for couplers used in the high performance applications like the
Current Eliminator or some of the NEDRA cars?  Do you guys use tool steel
or just a cold rolled bar stock?

When running the twin 8 inch motors in White Zombie equipped with a battery pack capable of delivering 2500+ amps of current and after using the brutal 2500+ amp ‘Afterburner Bypass’ a few too many times, the coupler between the motors, and the cold rolled steel motor shafts, keyways, and the key stock pieces, were getting torn up and worn to where something was going to break. Perhaps the wear was just from pieces not quite being machined just right or aligned perfectly. In any event, when we designed the new Siamese 8 motor, we wanted the shaft material to be strong. Dutchman Motorsports chose a high strength rating of stainless steel to machine the super long shaft out of. Maybe Jim Husted can recall the exact material number and its hardness rating? If my memory serves me correctly, the cold rolled steel shaft of a stock motor is something like a ‘30′ rating where the special stainless shaft has a ‘130′ rating…Jim? This shaft has a splined output that mates into a beefy Spicer U-joint yoke. You can view it here:

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence/Shaft_Spicer

We also wanted to have the new Siamese 8 setup to be as simple as possible. The new design got rid of the obvious, the two separate motors and their motor bracket-mount in favor of a single unit that still acts like two motors (25 lb. weight savings), and so it also eliminated the motor-to-motor shaft coupler. It also got rid of the rear motor output flange, the flanged U-joint coupler that attached to it, the heavy all steel two piece driveline, and the center support bracket and carrier bearing assembly. Now, there’s just the Siamese 8 with its splined output shaft, and a light and strong aluminum driveshaft (10 lb. spinning mass weight savings) that slides onto the motor shaft.
The new motor is also 7 inches shorter than were the twin motors on their mount bracket, so the Siamese 8 sits flat and parallel to the ground, unlike the old twin motor affair that was so long it had to sit on top of the front transverse frame rail of the car and poke downward so the back end of the rear motor would clear the tranny bell housing body tunnel.

If things go as planned, the car will soon shed even more weight when we change out the heavy steel case Ford 9 inch differential  and replace it with a much lighter all aluminum unit from Strange Engineering. The continued weight reductions, plus a taller gear set in back, high rpm field weakening, and a fresh battery pack (thank you Hawker AeroBatteries), should help us achieve this year’s goal of running an 11.5 @ 115 mph…on DOT tires.

See Ya……John Wayland