John J. Fialka writes an in depth article about the John Wayland, NEDRA and the history of electric drag racing for the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Don’t miss the excellent video in the middle on the on-line article.

PORTLAND, Ore. — On a recent Friday night at the Portland International Raceway, John Wayland scanned the dragsters, looking for an opponent for his geeky looking 1972 Datsun sedan. Finally, he challenged the owner of a souped-up 2005 Corvette, the hottest-looking car at the track, to a quarter-mile race. See how an electric car dubbed the White Zombie is leaving conventional muscle cars in the dust. When the starting light flashed, the Datsun, known as White Zombie, shot silently past the Corvette and kept widening the lead as the two cars faded into the distance…

Link

Hello to All,

The above title now seems at odds, as I finally get this part 2 post out. The timing for it sucks. By now, everyone knows that another EVent has come and gone (Wayland Invitational III) and I should be writing about ‘it’ instead. Oh well…chalk it up to being over-the-top busy the past three weeks, chalk it up to just being plain wrung-out from all the ups and downs of putting on a major racing EVent, chalk it up to being worn-down from weeks of constant media attention more fitting of a visiting Hollywood super star than some Greek geek playing around with his electric car. On the other hand, to fully appreciate the July 13th & 14th weekend’s track numbers you really need to know the build-up to the Wayland Invitational III, which our racing from June 29th was very much part of.

Anyway, here it is at last, part 2:

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Hello to All,

childreypa@drmm.net wrote:

I always thought that sitting batteries on a concrete garage floor would suck out the charge. If it were true, wouldn’t direct contact with the ground do the same?…but is the concrete myth even true?

I’ll take this one on. Read the rest of this entry »

Hello to All,

As usual, there’s a Wayland story here, so go get that cup of coffee and maybe a nice cinnamon melt, kick off those shoes, relax, and enjoy!

All I can say, is WOW! Finally, we’ve broken into the 11s that have eluded us for now for the past two years….and yes, we drove it to and from the track! As Rod Wilde posted, Tim Brehm drove White Zombie into the 11s twice, with the fourth run the best ET at 11.948 @ 109.75 mph, and the fifth and final run an 11.960 @ 110.14 mph. Remember when we were trying to be the first street legal EV to crack 100 mph in the 1/4 mile? Geesh, now we’re flying up to 110 mph!

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Hello everyone,
After many hours of work on the car to get ready for racing, Friday finally came. It had been raining off and on all day with downpours in the afternoon. It was starting to look like the anti-EV vortex was back. I arrived at Wayland’s around 4:00 pm to find the shop full of cameras and crew interviewing Wayland. Between the weather and the distractions it wasn’t looking good for racing.

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I had written:

Tonight, after I return from yet another 320 mile round trip to Central Oregon and back (7 trips in less than 4 weeks now), Tim Brehm >and I will meet up at my house at 6:00 pm or so to re-install the Siamese 8 in White Zombie.

For the first time in a long time, it actually went as planned. I returned from my service call to Bend back into the Portland area right on schedule at 5:35 pm. Read the rest of this entry »

Hello to All,
Before getting into my post here, I want to publicly thank my friend Jim Husted for his heroic effort in rebuilding & improving the Siamese 8 these past weeks! Jim is ‘THE’ DC motor king! His artistry is amazing. I had the motor in the back of my work service truck yesterday in all its purple glory, and the ‘wows’ it got from all those who had the pleasure of seeing it, told it all. Thank you, Jim!

OK, here we go…..Advancing motor timing as you increase the volts to the motor under high amperage has been long known for its benefits, so it’s nothing new. Read the rest of this entry »

This month’s Car and Driver magazine features an excellent article written by Ted West entitled “Batteries Included; In Oregon the Merry Lunatic Fringe Builds a Green Screamer.” The article highlights John, Tim, the White Zombie and many others from the electric racing community.

Link to online article

Mike Willmon wrote:

So another question for the list. Since welded gears are not EVen allowed under NHRA rules and spools are only allowed with aftermarket housings, whats the strongest type of locking differential to get for drag racing? Detroit, Auburn, ARB (are ARB Air lockers EVen strong enough for racing?)?

I think they’re all pretty strong. I love the Detroit Locker in White Zombie. Not a lick of problems to report, and it simply goes about its business. In a quiet EV, it’s pretty cool because you can clearly hear the locker ratcheting and clicking as the car turns, then when you line up straight on the strip launch pad, it goes ‘Ka-clunk!’ as if to say, “Yeah, I’m ready to help you paint twin blacks stripes.” The Detroit has taken all the power the Siamese 8 has twisted into it and has easily handled the torque. I would highly recommend one. Read the rest of this entry »

MIKE WILLMON wrote:

My next concern is the strength of the assembly housing itself.

I see John’s mentioned going to a built aluminum carrier (and maybe a whole aluminum housing)

Mike, the new ‘Strange’ aluminum third member has arrived, though I haven’t picked it up yet. I am not going to an aluminum housing for the rest of the axle setup though. I am very pleased with the Dutchman Motorsports steel ‘Street Strip’ housing and have had no problems with it at all. In addition to this new aluminum third member casting, a new ‘Wilwood’ drag raging disc brake conversion setup has also arrived. These are specifically designed for drag racing, are extremely light weight, and for a little Datsun 1200 are huge at 11.3 inches. Together, these two changes should chop another 50-70 lbs. weight off the car, and the having four wheel discs will certainly make the car haul itself down from 110 mph quicker.

After Sunday’s foray into flash-over motor volt limits, I’ve decided to do another gear ratio change, too. More on this later.

John,
Aside from the cracks around your pinion shaft carrier, how did the chopped assembly housing from the ‘57 Ford hold up to the abuse?

Very well. I had no problems at all with the stock housing. The only complaint, was that chopped as it came to me, it placed the third member off to the passenger side too far. By the time the Dutchman would have been finished modding the housing and its two axles, it was not a lot more money to simply start over with the ‘Street Strip’ housing fitted with the big bearings and the beefy 31 spline Dutchman axles over the stock 28 spline ones.
See Ya……John Wayland

John, Tim and White Zombie went for a day of racing at Portland International on Sunday. No post from John yet, but here are a series of posts made by Roderick Wilde to the EVDL.

3/18/2007 1:19PM

John has been calling me from the track so for those very few EV race fans out there here is an update. The first run on the new batteries with the current turned down to a measly small street amps of 1000 it turned a 12.64 at 98.69 mph. The 60 ft time was 1.67 and it was at 84.5 mph at the eighth mile at 7.85 seconds. The second run netted a 12.38 second ET at 104.21 mph. Of particular note is the fact that in all of last years racing 104 mph was the top speed they ever got out of “White Zombie”. They have a great announcer at Portland International Raceway that is really playing up the fact that this is an electric car and also the specs on the car. The first two runs annihilated the cars in the other lane. The second run was against a built V8 Chevy Nova. The poor guy didn’t have a prayer being matched up against the electric. On the second run he was at 87.73 mph in 7.74 seconds. With these leaps in performance they just may get into the elevens without turning up the amps. I personally believe this type of publicity does a lot for the cause of EVs. People at the track go home and tell their buddies, “hey, you wouldn’t believe what I saw at the track last night!” The word is definitely starting to get out there and with the Car and Driver article EVs may become part of the general population’s consciousness.

Roderick Wilde
“Suck Amps EV Racing”
www.suckamps.com

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We have a new slogan at Plasma Boy Racing….11’s in 07!

I’m happy to report that Dick Brown (Aerobatteries) pulled through again for us this year and working with our sponsor Enersys, our new 40% more powerful batteries have arrived! This year White Zombie will again, be running on Hawker power, but instead of the 30 - 24.5 lb. 26 ahr Aerobatteries models we used last year, we will be using 60 of the smaller Genesis model 16 ahr batteries. Yes, these are nearly the same battery we ran with from ‘98 through ‘02, back when White Zombie had 28 of them making up an ultra-light 378 lb. 336V battery pack. Before they had been abused and super-heated to extreme hand-burning levels, we could pull 750 amps from them with very few failures. Even 800 amps was doable for less than 10 seconds. Yeah, we did blow quite a few of them up as the years were added on, but again, they only began to fail after substantial abuse. Details for those interested, can be found at the Plasma Boy web page…just click on the ‘White Zombie History’ button and scroll to ‘1998 Early Version’.

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Hello to All,

I had been assured by the editors at Car and Driver, that the anticipated EV racing story was slated for the April issue that’s about to hit the stands in the next week or two…then I got the phone call. For whatever reason, the story got bumped I’m now told, to the May issue

It was sad news for me, as White Zombie is returning to the Portland Roadster show this year and will be on display at the Oregon Convention Center March 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. With the April issue to be on the stands at the same time, the timing ‘was’ perfect! There’s nothing better, than to have your car in a BIG show while at the same time, it is featured in a major magazine…. oh well.

The good news, is that Bill Dube’s exciting Killacycle is in the current April issue of Hot Rod magazine! Congrats to Bill and the crew for their recent success.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Back in July I had written:

Sob….though I’ve been in, under, and all around GP, I’ve never had a ride

That’s all been changed. With all the current talk about Gone Postal, instead of ‘talk’, I’ve been out driving it! Yeah, the rad postal van sits behind the locked gate here at the Wayland EV Juice Bar as I write this. What a beast it is!

I got to take it home after Saturday night’s racing, a calm and get-to-know-one-another 16 mile drive back home….just me and GP. It helped take my mind off the fact that I had just relinquished control and possession of White Zombie to FT and Roy to send it halfway across the country to the RPM trade show. Arriving at my backyard EV shop, I stuffed lots of juice back into all 40, yes, count ‘em, all 40 of the thirsty Exide Orbitals. I topped the twin-twenty 240V packs off the next morning before taking it out for a spin.

Going out the back door of my neighborhood onto a wide open road, with the front drive in 2nd gear and the rear drives kicked in, at around 20 mph I decided to stomp on it and see just what this machine had in it….OH MY GAWD!!! Instantly, I had my hands full, as the full fury of twin Zillas, twin 8s, a pissed off 9 in front, and 40 warmed up and rock’n Orbitals simply mauled me up to perhaps 50 mph in, what, maybe a second??? The torque was massive and it felt as if I was riding a bull trying to buck me off! Where White Zombie feels brutal, this thing feels possessed! If the forces behind this project ever get the planets all aligned in just the right order, I have no doubts that this 4300 lb. brick monster can run low12s (perhaps a high 11) and an easy 115 mph.

Read the rest of this entry »

OK, it’s Monday 5:57 am…cobwebs are clearing, the day after day 3 of a crazed weekend of racing and fellowship with the best of friends.

In response to Jim Husted’s first part of his Late Night Nationals post, James Massey wrote:

So how did John do reverse in Zombie? Did he go with the tried-and-not-so-true reversing contactors that he had trouble with before, or do something less conventional?

C’mon, wanna know…

James has been great helping me with ideas on the best way to reverse the not-so- conventional motor & contactor setup in my car, so I want to thank him for all his support. In the end, I went back to the way I had done it two years ago, only in a much more aggressive design. To clarify, I reverse the front motor section only while the rear motor section is off line and is just along for the ride. Here’s how it gets done…

Much to my not wanting to do so, I replaced the beefy 4/0 external field-to-armature cable connection (~ 1ft. long) on the front motor section, with two short 4/0 cables and an SW200 Albright contactor with a single set of contact tips normally open (NO), the same model as the three I use for the series/parallel switchers. The racer in me was convinced the added extra set of high current contacts would add too much resistance and negatively affect the car’s performance at the drag strip. When you’re hunting 100ths of a second, even small losses affect things.

Fast forward to this weekend’s runs…the car ran 12.3 ETs, the same as before the reverse mods, so I’m happy to report that I was wrong , and boy is it sa-weeeet! Flip a switch, and it silently goes the other way!

Back to the reversing project…In my car’s original design, I wanted to avoid using the array of F-R type contactor sets used for series, parallel, forward and reverse (times two) as is the norm for a Zilla equipped EV that takes advantage of its ability to drive twin motors. From my extensive experience with forklift contactors, I’ve learned that despite claims from contactor manufacturers to the contrary, the F-R contactors burn their normally closed tips that rely on spring pressure much worse, than their normally open tips that are closed under high pressure via the magnetic pull of the contactor coil. In White Zombie running at 2000 amps, all those spring-closed tip sets add up to unwanted problems. Thus, the way I wire the sections of my Siamese 8 requires just three single pole type contactors (NO tips) to accomplish the series and parallel modes. For the series mode, just on SW200 slams shut and connects the motor sections in line for the high torque series configuration launch mode. To switch to parallel, the series contactor opens and a pair of parallel SW200s slam shut connecting the motor sections across each other for the parallel configuration max hp top end mode. Simple, and no NC spring pressure contact tips, and just three easy to see and easy to replace NO contact tip sets, and after two years in service they look almost as new still! To continue…with the 4th SW200 inserted between the field and armature of the front motor section’s field-to-armature series connection, with it energized and pulled in I can still operate the Siamese 8 motor as I had been doing, or, by opening this ‘field contactor’, the front motor section can now be reconfigured for reverse via a set of 300 amp GE single pole NO contactors. These are the same heavy duty contactors I had installed and experimented with for field weakening. Yes, in the forward direction series mode of operation, the Siamese 8 now has two SW200 Albright contactors to loop the 2000 amps through instead of just one, but when I looked at the tip condition of the series mode contactor and saw they had not burned at all the last two years in service, I figured there must not be all that much resistance to worry about, and the results from this weekend’s runs backs this up.

Soooo…that’s how reverse was accomplished, at least from the high current high voltage path perspective. The other ‘control logic’ circuit is a whole ‘nuther story! I wanted to use the Hairball’s great set of convenience and safety features, especially the ‘roll detect’ circuit Otmar built into its design (inspired by yours truly back in the formative days of the Hairball) that prevents catastrophic reversing of the motors during an apposing direction under detectable rpm. I also wanted a true ‘Neutral’ direction position with the dash mounted three position toggle switch, so that nothing can run when the switch is in neutral. I also wanted all the fault code options intact….etc. etc.

The high current reversing wiring was actually completed a week ago and had been tested in a crude ‘disconnect all these wires, hook up all these’ wheels off the ground trial operation. The control logic job was intense and required lots of new wire looms, a lot more relays, more switches, a new bracket, and more stuff too boring to keep listing. Tim Brehm and Chris Brune literally sweated through a day long under-hood ordeal getting it ready for racing Friday night while I hung out on the shaded deck sipping lemonade through an interview with Car and Driver’s Ted West. Thanks to both of these guys for taking on the challenge and taking the pressure off me.

In the end, it all worked as planned…..oh yeah, there ‘was’ that little glitch of frying 25 amp fuse! Seems the last minute snubber we installed across the reversing contactor coils couldn’t handle the inductive kick-back and failed in a shorted condition! Once we figured that out though, reverse was available at the mere flip of a switch…beautiful!

See Ya….
John Wayland

Yes, it’s crazy time here at the Wayland EV Juice bar… a hot 90+ degrees, people and EVs everywhere! A more detailed report will follow after this weekend’s behind me, but for now this update.Tim warmed-up the Zombie with two 12 second runs, then it was Car and Driver’s Ted West’s turn. The nervous journalist received last minute instructions from Tim and I on the best launching techniques and what to expect before he was strapped into the electric Datsun from Hell and sent out to the track. First run…12.6 even after letting off the throttle too early with the finish line still ahead of him. With his head hanging in shame, he vowed not to repeat the error and delivered smack-down 12.3 @ 103 mph second run. Third run 12.3 @ 102 mph. This last run Ted lifted both front tires about 4 inches off the ground immediately, so the front wheels were stationary and not rotating for about 40 feet…a very cool looking power-launch!

Earlier this year, Car and Driver road tested a new 500+ hp V10 Dodge Viper that turned a 12.5 ET, so it’s now fairly official from the magazine’s perspective, that an electric street sedan runs a quicker 1/4 mile!

One additional stat…White Zombie ran 12’s on all runs defeating every gasser challenge of the night!

Gotta go…time to head to the track.

See Ya…
John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

There’s been a frenzy of media coverage lately over EV drag racing, and in particular, over White Zombie’s routine weekend drag racing runs against the gasser boys. A certain well known car magazine has been in contact (can’t release details right now), Dateline Australia was here, and last night a reporter from Oregon’s biggest newspaper ‘The Oregonian’ spent time with me and the little Datsun from Hell.

It seems that the battery problems we had at the Wayland Invitational a few weeks ago where we blew up a Hawker, are behind us now, and it was just one weak battery that let go. We had replaced it with a pre-cycled spare Hawker and had carefully worked the pack back up into equalization with numerous 10-15 mile road drives, long low amperage charging, then several high current discharges and heavy charge cycles. We raced this past weekend and got four 12 second runs in without a single battery problem. Following Friday night’s racing, I’ve been driving the Zombie every day and the 360V pack of Hawkers are beautifully equalized and sit at 392-393V. They’re rock’n hard and are performing at high levels of power.

Fast forward to the best part….Oregonian sports writer Doug Binder’s ride in White Zombie. So….I’d been trying to explain to him the way the car launches from rest and how even against really powerful gas cars known to run 0-60 in 4 seconds or so, my EV is 4-5 car lengths ahead of them at 60 mph. I told him the Zombie’s 0-60 time is estimated to be somewhere in the mid 3’s. He’s a nice guy, so no disrespect is intended, but I just don’t think he got it. He evidently, had no idea what the car would really be like.

Anyway…it was a hot day, so the recently repaved asphalt on Burnside was warm and sticky. We rounded a corner and just when I had straightened out the Zombie and was rolling at about 5 mph, I planted my right foot down hard! To my surprise, instead of the usual 100 feet of constant wheel spin and copious tire smoke, the damn thing simple stuck and did a wheel stand, instantly slamming the poor guy into his seat as both his eyes were big as saucers as he was now looking through the windshield at the sky instead of the road. When the front end came back down, it unloaded the rear tires a bit and they were breaking loose and squealing as we rushed up to speed. It was about the best power demo I could have hoped for! He was at the same time, in a state of shock, scared absolutely sh….tless, and yet, had the biggest EV grin I think I’ve ever seen…well, OK, Matt’s was pretty big, too! I almost felt bad, because he was shaking a bit afterwards. He told me he had never, ever been in a car that accelerated like that…ever! He said it was more like an amusement park ride

The best news for the Late Night Nationals coming up the 25th & 26th next weekend, is that the article will be the lead feature on Thursday the 24th the day before the races, in the Oregonian’s sports section…great pre-race PR! An Oregonian camera man is scheduled to be at the Wayland EV juice bar this Sunday to take the photo that will appear. I think a line-locked full tire burn is in order.

I can hardly wait to read Doug Binder’s write-up.

See Ya…
John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Hello to All,
From part 1…..

At a little before 7:00 the line formed to go into the theater, so show and tell was over and the real show was about to begin.

I was excited to see this movie. In a past life of getting on airplanes and flying into various parts of the country to work in wafer fabs as a high tech trouble-shooter, I found myself in California and Arizona often, two places where the elusive EV1 could actually be seen touched, and yes, even driven if one was fortunate enough. I drove EV1s in San Diego, and I drove EV1s in Phoenix. Though not nearly as lucky as those who were leasees of EV1s, I did get to drive perhaps twenty EV1s over a period of maybe three years. I got to see the Impact, too, the forerunner of the EV1, and got to see and sit inside ‘Sunnyside Up’, the race prepped EV1 that went 183 mph and set a world speed record for a production electric car. Rod Wilde raced drag raced his Maniac Mazda against this car and beat it (to the dismay of the GM engineers) while we were both in Phoenix. I’ve even drag raced White Zombie against Marvin Rush in his EV1…what a fun memory that is (video up at Plasma Boy Racing). I loved the EV1, it’s truly one of the world’s great cars.

Sidebar…

During its heyday, an EV1 was available for rent through ‘EV Rentals’, a subdivision of Budget Car Rental. I took advantage of this, and got to know the good folks at the LA Airport’s Budget Car Rental well. Whenever I had business in that area, instead of flogging some wheezing econocar gasser and adding to the LA Basin’s pollution problem, I was whirring about in a high performance electric car, the fabulous EV1 (driving experience story at the links page of Plasma Boy Racing)! When I first heard of the idea that one could actually rent this rare and exotic car, it seemed too good to be true, and it reminded me of the tales told by aging hotrodders of a time when the legendary AC Cobra, an ultra hi performance muscle car, could be rented from ‘Hertz Rent a Car’. Today, any sane hotrodder would give his left arm for a chance to get a ride in a for real AC Cobra, so to think that ‘anybody’ with a driver’s license could merely waltz into a Hertz Rental facility, drop down some pocket change, and go out and wreak havoc on poor saps in their Mustangs, GTOs, and Vettes, is well, the stuff that makes great stories! Of course, an original Cobra is a highly valued, rare collectible that broke all the rules, set the bar high, and today represents a time gone by. At the time, I remember thinking that some day, aging EVers (guys like me) would tell tales of how one could rent an exotic, rare, limited production, hi performance EV1. Today, the EV1, like the Cobra, is a highly valued, rare collectible (for museums that hide them away when GM tells them to) that broke all the rules, set the bar high, and today represents a time gone by. Back to the movie….

Before the movie began, Chris addressed us all, which really added to the whole thing. All I can say, is WOW! Chris and all involved did a terrific job.

The film is expertly crafted with great camera work and full fidelity, well mixed audio. A highlight for me, was music by Joe Walsh during a drag race scene between a Hummer and an EV1. Other highlights was seeing lots of folks I’ve spent time with either in person or through correspondence, from Chelsea Sexton involved with the EV1 program (she and I hung out together, then she handed me the keys to an EV1 in Phoenix and told me to go play with the car), to former GM CEO Robert Stemple (wrenched on EVs with him in Orlando), to Iris and Stan Ovshinsky (had a wonderful discussion about NiMH batteries with them at EVS 14), to Alan Cocconi (met him one night in the Arizona desert), to Dough Korthof (traveling through Oregon in his Honda EV Plus), Wally Rippel (his first EV was a Datsun 1200)…it was like I was ‘part’ of this movie and that I had lived through the whole thing with everybody. Yes, there are parts of this movie where I thought I might be offended, such as the areas dealing with politics, but it was handled in a way that didn’t seem to be ‘bashing’ for bashing sake, rather, it was dealt with on a factual basis that left the viewer feeling it was up to them to decide…good job, Chris. So great was this movie, that my eyes welled up several times (I can’t say tears for fear of ridicule by male compatriots) during certain scenes. Imagine, a documentary with this kind of power! Even if one is not already an environmentalist or EVer, this movie would move them as well.

After the lights came back up, it was open forum question and answer time with Chris and others. A proud moment for me, was when all those who had electric cars were asked to stand, where we received a huge round of applause.

After the show, Chris was the ultimate host, handing out large format posters and autographing them for all who asked. When the time was right (no, this is not a Cialis commercial), Chris and I had a great one on one discussion about the film. We discussed our mutual appreciation of Joe Walsh where I learned Joe was an EV1 leasee…didn’t know that! Walsh normally does not allow his music to be used in movies, but he was happy to give permission for use in this film. Too much to cover in this area, but let it suffice to say Chris and I had lively conversations as the night went on.

As things were winding down, Chris and friends joined us back outside for the anticipated Zombie ride…or should I say rides? Tim was instructed by my wife to not get too crazy on the streets, while I was standing behind her silently mouthing ‘NAIL IT’. Chris asked for his life to be spared…too bad no video footage was shot of all this fun. It wasn’t the best setup for a full blown Zombie experience. The Hollywood district of Portland is very congested with cramped streets, lots of traffic, people everywhere…you just can’t do 100 mph down Sandy Boulevard! Tim left with Chris and disappeared into the night for a good 15 minutes, while we all worried that maybe they had wrapped themselves around a telephone pole somewhere. They returned though, and Chris’ EV grin was pretty large! I would later see lots of 30 foot long tire patches in the area where they had been. Chris said he could only imagine what the car could do if they hadn’t had such a tight area to drive through. We did see Tim launch the car once as they were leaving a stoplight, and the front tires popped off the ground a little, so at least Chris got to feel that gut distorting torque As he got out of the car, one of the first things he said was, “That does it, I’m coming back for the Portland EV Drag races in August!” In my head I said, “Mission accomplished!”

Remember how I had described how hungry Cheryl, Tim, and I were ‘before’ the show? Since then, only the late afternoon ice cream bars, the hype of the car show, the movie, the high octane discussions, and a couple bags of movie popcorn and a couple bottles of pop had sustained us. To my delight, Chris asked if we would like to join him for dinner at a brew house around the corner that his brother knew of. Yes, there’s a Portland connection to Chris, in that his brother lives here! As I was feeling ‘special’ to have had the personnel invite, it suddenly became apparent that Chris had tricked me with an ulterior motive, as he scrambled back into White Zombie for a ride to the restaurant :-0 Jay Donaway, Cheryl, and I got in Blue Meanie and followed. The pack was sitting at 152V static after the 6 mile drive without a refresh charge, and while the moment of all the excitement this evening had brought still had me zinging, I was also pondering the all uphill drive back to the Wayland EV juice bar on 6+ year old batteries that were already pretty darn tired. Would we make it back home? In the old days, circa the early 1980s, through periods of battery experimentation, there was many a night where Cheryl had to either help me push this car, or worse yet, had to walk home from some ‘stranded’ location with me. To this day, even after having Red Beastie with its easy 120 mile range that never, ever left us without adequate range, she’s still gun shy of the ‘little blue car’, and the first words out of her mouth were, “We’ve got enough to get home, right?” In my head I said, “Geez, the batteries are 6 years old, they haven’t been charged, it’s all up hill home, they’re sitting at less than 12 volts right now with no load on them, what do YOU think?”…but outside that strange head of mine, this came out, “Sure sweetie, the car’s doing great. Relax, let’s enjoy the evening.”

At the restaurant/brew house, the fellowship was fun, and the brew and food was terrific as well. In trying to get a Chris Paine quote describing his Zombie ride, Jay came up with ‘Had I ridden in White Zombie before I made this film it would have been changed to ‘Who Saved the Electric Car?” This brought out laughter from Chris and all.

Afterwards, Chris asked me how the charge was on White Zombie, and if there was enough to give a few more rides for his brother and friends and still get us home OK. Tim reported that the pack was quite stiff still and that the voltage was still hanging near 180 or so. And so rides, we gave! One of Chris’ friends was in the passenger seat and was talking to Tim about how he’s got this buddy with a super fast, built Dodge Dart, and just as he was about to say how fast ‘that’ car was, Tim stood on it, pulled the front tires up, and laid down twin black stripes as they clawed away down the street. Tim told me later that all kind of explicatives came out of the guy’s mouth as he was slammed back in the seat on launch, and that it was obvious he just wasn’t expecting ‘Zombie’ acceleration….Tim said it was great fun.

Near 11:30 pm, the time came for everyone to say goodbye. We thanked Chris and his entourage for making such a great film and for being so engaged with all the EVers who came on this fun night, and he thanked us for the dedication we all had, and of course, for his thrill ride.

Cheryl and I dropped Jay off at the MAX train station, and we were about to make our way back home when Tim flagged us down. Seems the DC-DC had just called it quits and the Zombie’s lights were dimmed down to an 11+ volt level again…hmmm. A quick check revealed a blown 5 amp HV fuse. We decided to not worry about the problem, as the drive home would be a just 12-15 minutes. Blue Meanie was my concern at the moment, with the pack sagging into the 145V range under 35 mph speeds. To my amazement, the pack hung in there fairly well most of the way home. After about 4 miles though (10 miles total), I started to see 130+V readings, then even lower as we continued to pull mild hills. Long story shorter…we made it home, a 12 mile round trip on Optimas with at least 600 cycles on them. Yes, I pulled the pack down HARD into sub 100V levels on the last 1/2 mile, but the pack recovered well and took in a 1.5 hour charge, most of that at 23+ amps! White Zombie’s pack was sitting at 375 volts right after shutting it down, this after 12 miles, and HEAVY repeated 1000 amp acceleration runs. White Zombie too, was recharged before I went to bed.

The next morning, the Zombie’s pack was sitting at 391V (perfect), and Blue Meanie’s pack seemed to enjoy it’s flogging, as instead of sitting at 158V static (new, it used to sit at 169V) in the winter of its life, it was now at 164V. Subsequent driving these past days has Blue Meanie feeling way peppier and the pack acting like it did a few years ago. No reversed cells and far less voltage sag. Guess those old Optimas can be woken back up.

What a fun night! Thanks again to everyone that made this come together, with special thanks to Brad Hippert who was instrumental in getting my car included as part of the show festivities. Of course, a big thank you to Chris Paine for his commitment to not letting this story get buried by GM and for having the courage to stick with it for three long years in the making.

See Ya…
John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland

Hello to All, I had written:

…a few photos from last night’s fun with Chris Paine are up at the Plasma Boy web page. Look for a detailed post later tonight….

Then this from Jim Husted:

I’m so pleased that you got to pull it off last night…I’m not going to ruin the plot for EVeryone and I can’t wait to read the full post.

OK, here’s ‘the rest of the story’……As is typical, this all started bad, very bad. In Portland, Oregon, once we get past July 4th or so, you can count on Summer weather, we’re talking little to no rain and 85-95 degree temps the norm through August. So, anyone wanna guess where I’m going with this? Yup, that damn anti-EV vortex is still after me! I’m not kidding. After 20+ days of sun and warm weather, and with Chris and his crew arriving in town for the big film debut (and a scheduled Zombie ride), a weird July cold front was forecast for mid-week, most likely Wednesday. Geesh! In fact, you just couldn’t get a more deliberate conspiracy from the weather man, with his 7 day forecast showing 85-90 degrees Monday and Tuesday, then plummeting temps and rain ‘only’ on Wednesday, then Thursday and Friday rebounding into the 80s with Saturday and Sunday heading into the 90s again. It seems at every possibility for an EVent this year, weird weather has done it’s best to kill it!

Yesterday morning as I awoke early to start my forklift wrenching day, the smell of fresh wet air wafted through the bedroom window. Right on queue, on the exact day that of the movie debut, the rare for July cold front has rolled in off the Pacific and it’s raining! All day long, it rained. I’m in the back of my service truck doing this and that, and all I can hear is the sound of rain beating down on the aluminum roof…damn! To make matters worse, my planned ‘easy’ day (so I could get off work early at 3:00) is anything but easy and is rapidly going south on me, with one customer freaking out because five, count ‘em, five lift trucks are down all at the same time and I’ve got to get them back on line before I can go home. I call for backup to get an extra tech to help out, but it seems all the techs were slammed on this day…nice! I’m building here, so bear with me……

By noon, it’s still raining, and as I get something repaired and back in service, operators keep stopping by on forklifts carrying more dead pallet jacks over to me. By two, it’s raining even harder and the skies are getting darker. By three, it’s still raining. Work continued to get more insane and each time I got caught up, another repair would show up. The grand total of dead lift trucks came to eight. At near 4:00 however, the rain stopped, the clouds began to go away, and patches of blue showed up as the roads began to dry. Man, was I going to get a break?

I arrived at my house and hour and a half later than planned at 4:30. My wife’s work day had also went crazy and though she had planned to meet me at the house at around 3:30, she didn’t get home until after 4:00. The plan was, that she and I would take Blue Meanie, and Tim would drive White Zombie. The rain thing had just tweaked with me all day, work had gone to hell in a hand basket, and I had cars waiting at home to prep for a show that I really needed a couple of hours for. Now it was getting late and there was little time left to get the cars spiffed up. I had also wanted to take both out for a 4-5 mile ‘wake-up run’ with subsequent recharges to get their juices flowing. Blue Meanie in particular, with its 6+ year old Optimas, would never make a 12 mile round trip to the show and back unless I exercised the old pack before hand. Yeah, things had certainly not gone as I had hoped for. I was tired and dirty with a combination of sweat and hydraulic fluid, I stunk…I was stressed out over everything. Nothing like a shower though, to wash away problems, and by 5-ish I emerged a refreshed Plasma Boy. Tim too, had one of those days but in perfect timing fashion, he was at my door as I was ready to go out it.

We had wanted to be at the theater by 5:30 or so to get both of my EVs in the lineup near the theater entrance with other EVs from the OEVA group, and, we wanted meet up with Chris before show time. Instead, we hadn’t left my house, it was already after 5:00, and nothing had been done yet. My wife isn’t a real happy camper when things go this way. All three of us were hungry, too. I’m still building here……

Blue Meanie gets put on charge to top its pack off…White Zombie, too. At full charge (445V), Zombie’s charger is shut down and the pack rests at 404V right after. The Chris Brune DC-DC is put on line as the 12V system jumps to 14.4V and the packs settles in at 391 volts.

Time for Tim to take the car out for a spin. He goes up the shop driveway and is almost to the road, when the car suddenly looses power and coasts to a stop. WHAT???? Nooo-oooh, not now! A second press-down on the throttle allows the car to make it onto the street, then it dies again. This is definitely bad timing! What’s up with this? We got the car back into the shop, hooked up the Mac, and pulled all these Zilla codes: 1124 (Main contactor stuck on), 1141 (main contactor high resistance), 1221 (Major Overspeed Either Motor Beyond red line by X), 1224 (SLI Battery too low and caused shutdown of controller), 1231 (Propulsion pack open, no contactor drop, and controller is not responding). Geez, what the heck?

So now, it’s 5:30, we’re still in the driveway working on a broken car that’s expected to be at the show as one of the attractions, Blue Meanie ‘really’ needs to be taken out for pack warm-up (or we’ll never make the round trip), and we’re starving. Cheryl comes out with ice cream treats and though she knows things aren’t going well, she says nothing as she hands them to us. This is ‘not’ what I needed after the day I’d had! Tim and I tried to figure out the codes. I hadn’t cleared them since I had raced a few weekends ago, so the older 1224 code made sense…that was when I was driving home pre DC-DC and the 12V battery had lost its will (7-6-06 Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night!). So did the 1141, because the contactor had dropped out due to the low 12V problem on that night. The 1231 code happens often, as both Tim and I occasionally forget to insert the interior emergency disconnect handle before atempting to boot up the Zilla. That left us with the freshly imprinted codes 1124 and 1221. Tim was all over it, and within a few minutes, had discovered the rpm sensor’s input lead to the Hairball had come loose…no input from that sensor while flag ‘a’ is on, and you’ll get that 1221 code! The 1124 then made sense, because when the car died due to the tach drive thing, the contactor did not drop out, thus the Zilla said the contactor was ‘stuck on’ because it was still on when the controller had shut itself down.

After reinserting the sensor’s wire at the Hairball and cinching it up with a small screw driver, all was well and the Zombie was ready to roll. Time now, nearly 5:45 pm. Tim takes the car out for the drive, while I take Blue Meanie for a short 1/2 mile cruise through the neighborhood, then return and put it back on charge. That would be all the time I had to freshen up the Meanie’s pack. Tim got back, the car was charged up again, and after quick wipe-downs and vacuum jobs, we were finally ready to leave for the show…it’s now 6:10 pm.

We drove conservatively to the theater, about 6 miles from the Wayland home. Blue Meanie’s tired old 156V pack of Optimas hung in there fairly well, but make no mistake, the days of seeing 165 volts while cruising at 40 mph are gone, replaced these days with 149-152 volts and lots of sag under any type of acceleration. At the theater, as I had assumed, there were no charging outlets to help the Meanie’s pack out. White Zombie’s pack laughed at the drive and still registered 185 volts on the Emeter!

The presentation of EVs was great. Going from memory, there was Gary Graunke’s silver AC powered Insight, Ralph Merwin’s super clean teal Geo Prism EV, a white electric Chevy S10 pickup, Myles Twete’s show stopper dark navy 1921 Milburn EV, Blue Meanie and White Zombie, and a couple other EVs I can’t clearly recall (sorry to those I’ve forgotten). There were lots of people gathering to see the electric cars, lots of video cameras, lots of digital cameras, lots of excitement! As I’m doing my typical show and tell of Blue Meanie (as always, the remote controlled motorized rear battery tray was a big hit), Tim is working a group of folks curious about White Zombie. I had talked with quite few people, but there was this one guy who was very intrigued with the under-hood area of Blue Meanie, and so we chatted for perhaps 10 minutes before he said to me, “Oh, by the way, I’m Chris” (as he gives me a firm hand shake). I was pretty embarrassed that I had not recognized him. We migrated over to White Zombie, where his face erupted into a very big EV grin as he took in its ‘racing attitude’. I told him Rod Wilde had asked me to present him with a pair of rubber shorts to prepare him for his Zombie ride, but Chris’ wit was readily apparent when he instantly quipped back, “Oh that’s OK, I’ve already got them on…wear them all the time.” I knew I’d like this guy! We decided to wait until after the show for his ride experience.

At a little before 7:00 the line formed to go into the theater, so show and tell was over and the real show was about to begin. To be continued…

See Ya….
John Wayland

The Red Beastie has met it’s end……

What a horrid thing to read when I’m away from home and excited to catch my email via Wi Fi somewhere in Alaska! As I download and begin to open my EVDL fix of the day looking for uplifting EV stuff, I instead read that Dick Finley’s and my creation, Red Beastie, has been destroyed…ARGHHH! And the way it happened? Incredible!

Of course, my condolences go out to my friend Tony for the loss of more than one EV, his home, and all its damaged goods. Glad to hear he and his mom were away at the time and unharmed.

And so ends the life of the electric pickup that could Today, with NiMH and LiIon making longer distance range possible in our electric conversions, a 120 mile-per-charge electric conversion doesn’t seem all that significant, but back in ‘97, Red Beastie created quite a buzz when it made it from Portland, OR to Seattle, WA and back, 440 total miles mostly at 60-65 mph speeds over varying terrain, with just four recharges during the trip! Back then, it took close to 2500 lbs. of lead, forty T-105 Trojan 6V wet cells to do the deed.

Somewhere floating out there in cyberspace, there’s my EVDL post all about that incredibly fun trip, with guest appearances from Father Time, Marko Mongillo, and Madman Rudman. Twin tow-behind gencarts converged along the I-5 freeway corridor to provide on-road charging power, one brought south towards Portland by the deadly duo, and one towed behind the Beastie on the first leg Marko and I took on our way towards Seattle. Tied together with multiple tangled cords and connectors, they provided 120 amp roadside recharges. My gencart was tame compared to Madman’s. Mine was powered by a chugging twin cylinder air-cooled Onan who’s spinning alternator gave just 120 vac output and fed a variac ‘Wayland-made’ charger. Madman’s cart consisted of a high speed aircraft alternator spun by a stressed-out liquid-cooled Geo Metro 3 banger with a bad muffler. The alternator was hooked into 3 or 4 assorted sci fi project type rectifying devices and outputted 100+ amps! The mid-point recharge extravaganza happened at radical EVer Pat Sweeney’s place, where his ‘Ugly Box’ 240 vac powered capacitor chargers teamed up with our gencarts to pump a stout 190 continuous amps amps into the massive 2500 lb. thirsty Beastie pack. I’m convinced this charging frenzy altered Rudman’s brain and was the genesis of today’s terrific Manzanita Micro PFC Charger line. Man oh man, how we could have used a pair of PFC50s (or even better, a pair of my PFC50X) !!

Today, a 500 lb. stack of admittedly expensive LiIon batteries, could not only match the range capacity of the Beastie’s 2500 lb. wet cell lead acid pack, they could exceed it. I imagine a LiIon powered Beastie type truck (well, it wouldn’t even qualify as a beast with a mere 500 lbs. of batteries) could do the ~185 mile distance between these two major west coast cities on a single charge without breaking a sweat.

80 mile jaunts into the rugged Columbia River Gorge, extended snow driving with its 3000+ watt electric heater blasting, towing a 16 ft. tandem wheel trailer loaded with the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor and White Zombie 45 miles to race at Woodburn, taking Dick’s widow Shirley and her feisty toy poodle ‘Peppy’ out for an evening to see Christmas lights….Ahhh, the memories. Now, Dick is gone, Shirley is gone, Peppy too, is gone, and full circle, so is the electric pickup that made them so happy. RIP Red Beastie, my old friend

See Ya…….John Wayland

Red Beastie lives on at the Plasma Boy Racing video page; scroll to the thumbnail for the Ch. 2 news segment:

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php

Editor’s note: The article “420 Miles in the Red Beastie” can be found at the following links:

• Part I
• Part II

Hello to All,

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

I know you can have a la Red Beastie lead sled built to
demonstrate a range number rather than be a normal commuter,
but it’s not exactly what most people would want to drive).

(Don’t get me wrong, I respect Dick Finley’s creation very much).

From Roger Stockton:

In all fairness, I think that Victor’s comment still stands.
The Red Beastie got about 2x the range of a typical conversion, and used
2x the amount of batteries…other aspects of performance suffered as a result: this was a 5000lb
2-person vehicle with reasonably slow acceleration despite a decent
motor and controller combination.

I agree with both of your assessments. The truck was actually even heavier, at exactly 5290 lbs. It’s acceleration was borderline, it was very heavy and felt cumbersome to drive, it slowed down on steep hills, and it took forever to get up to near 90 mph, but amazingly it ‘did’ reach the very high 80s on level ground. On the other hand, it was also capable of towing a 16 ft. tandem wheel trailer loaded with my 2300 car, the 500 lb. Heavy Metal Garden Tractor, and a generator plus tools and stuff, at 55 mph from the east side of Portland south to Woodburn, OR, a 45 mile trip, and it still had about 30% charge left.

Victor, I think you and Dick would have liked each other.

See Ya…….John Wayland

See a video of Red Beastie in action (19th thumbnail down from the top of the page) at the Plasma Boy website:

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com

Hello to All,

Alan Smith wrote:

What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If you’ve gotten
over 60, definitely let me know.

Alan’s request does not state specifics such as vehicle types (size and weight), battery pack chemistry, battery pack weight and or BVWR (battery to vehicle weight ratio), weather conditions, the type of terrain, the average speed, the acceleration loads, the number of passengers (if any), etc., etc. I think any response to this request should include as much info as possible so those perusing the results can know the full story. For me, it’s not too impressive to say one got 60 miles of range, if they drove as if an egg were under their foot and kept speeds at or under 40 mph, for example. On the other hand, if one drove their EV like one normally does in a gas car, that is, accelerate up to speed briskly to stay with traffic flow, run along at 60-70 mph freeway speeds, climb various grades, and participate in stop and go traffic driving situations….then achieve a real 50 miles, now that’s impressive.

Here’s three examples from my own experiences:

(1) Circa 1984….Blue Meanie powered by just eight 6V wet cell lead acid golf car batteries with a primitive 3 step controller ( 24V w/resistor - 24V straight - 48V straight) and weighing about 1800 lbs. with batteries, managed 54 miles in a closed loop range rally circuit in Seattle against other EVs. That may seem impressive, until you realize that the speed limit was a tepid 35 mph on flat terrain on a warm summer day (best conditions for range using lead acid batteries). On average, there were two passengers on board, and acceleration was sometimes full-on tire spinning launches contrasted to sometimes old man type starts (excludes Dick Finley type old men). The car had a bit about a 30% BVWR. Acceleration was pretty good for a 48V car, especially in the 0-40 mph range, but real life 0-60 was probably 15 seconds. Normal everyday driving yielded about 25 miles range per charge.

(2) Circa 1997….Red Beastie powered by a whopping forty 6V wet cell lead acid golf car batteries with a lower powered controller maxed out at 450 amps (max current from each battery 250 amps) and weighing about 5300 lbs. with batteries, managed 120 miles in mostly 65 mph slow lane freeway driving between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA on varying terrain that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer day (best conditions for range using lead acid batteries). There were no passengers on board, and all accelerations up to speed were deliberately careful to extend range. The truck had a 47% BVWR. Acceleration was OK considering its portly 5300 lb. mass and a 120V 450 amp system. Real life 0-60 was probably 16- 18 seconds. Normal everyday driving around town with mixed city and slower 55 mph freeway driving (the speed limit within the city) yielded about 130 miles range per charge.

(3) Circa  2000 or 2001? …….EV Rental car, a GM EV1 powered by about 1100 lbs. of Ovonics NiMH batteries with a high performance AC drive system and weighing about 2900 lbs. with batteries, managed 110 miles in mostly 70-80 mph freeway driving between Escondido, CA and LA, CA on varying terrain that included moderate hill climbing, on a warm summer day (not the best conditions for range using NiMH batteries, as they like to be cooler). There were no passengers on board, and all accelerations up to speed were deliberately brisk for fun factor. The car had about 40% BVWR. Acceleration was stunning considering its range capabilities. Real life 0-60 was in the mid to high 7 second range. Here’s an excerpt from my story ‘Living in the Past, getting Beat by the Future’ (http://www.portev.org/commentary/living_in_the_past.htm):

At almost exactly 110 miles since I left the Saturn dealership, I had pulled off the freeway and was on Century Drive, stopped at a traffic light near EV Rentals. The EV1 had been flying along for about an hour and a half at 70-80 mph speeds, and had never once felt like it was running short on power. I noticed that there was an estimated 36 miles left on the range meter, so when the light went green, I decided to see what was left as I planted my right foot down one last time…..screeeeechhhh….,chirp-chirp…..scrreeechh….damn that traction control! What an EV! After running along at freeway speeds for so long, and after 110 miles, the thing could still fry the tires at will! I reluctantly pulled into the EV Rental lot and finding a Magna-charger, parked my electric friend and slipped the charge paddle into its nose…..29% battery left! And so ended my four day love affair with the Gen II EV1…one terrific electric car.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

I was excited to see this request for acceleration specs, until I realized my car has to be excluded
Steve wrote:

I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on acceleration. I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for 0 - 45 MPH with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.

Steve’s range of  4 - 40 seconds takes my car out of the performance window he’s set, as it accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in less than 4 seconds, so I guess I’ve got to sit this one out.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

I had written:

>I had also made it possible for Marko’s Fiat to be equipped with the same prototype group 31s, in fact, these two vehicles were the only >EVs on the street with these hard-to-get batteries.”

I heard from Rod who was quick to point out the following details:

>Actually we ran Group 31 Optimas in the British Land Rover with the large and very prominent “P”s on them at Moab. There were >pictures of the batteries in two major magazines, “Four Wheeler” and LRM (Land Rover Magazine) from England.

I stand corrected…sort of If I recall correctly, Rod got his group 31 YTs  several months after I did, so at the time that Baby Blue and Fiamp were running on them, we were indeed ‘the only EVs using them’. If you go to the photo at the following link, you can see that the two center mounted group 31 YT’s shown in Rod’s EV have the retail production lot labels on them, something that took a couple of months for Optima to get around to doing after the initial prototype offer to me.

http://www.evparts.com/about/images/roverFaceOff/H18.jpg

I’m certain Rod will re-correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure by the time Rod figured out what I was up to, Optima had run out of enough prototype batteries to fill his request for a full set of them, hence the two later production batteries mixed in with the prototype models.

Ah, the good ‘ol days back when Rod and I were EV rivals…now, it’s almost boring being good friends

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

I’ve always loved the 60’s thru early 70’s Datsun minitrucks, the original models that started the minitruck revolution that was the big thing for the 70’s period. Sadly, today there are no more true minitrucks as all have morphed into portly ‘midsize’ pickups. Anyway, some may remember a fun EV I put together back in the late 90’s, a ‘68 Datsun minitruck I called ‘Baby Blue’. It was featured in a documentary about EVs called ‘Where the Rubber Meets the Road’, where I had to convert it from a gasser to electric in one day, on camera. Of course, after that exhaustive 14 hour build, I improved the design. The end product was a 192V, 1200 amp road terror that was super fun to drive. The drive train consisted of an ADC 9 inch motor (properly timed), a Z car 5 speed tranny, racing clutch, the first T-Rex high voltage controller, thick 4/0 cabling, and 16 of the first prototypes of the experimental group 31 Optima YTs. I had also made it possible for Marko’s Fiat to be equipped with the same prototype group 31s, in fact, these two vehicles were the only EVs on the street with these hard-to-get batteries. I had placed the batteries in a custom metal enclosure mounted forward in the bed, leaving about 2/3 of open bed space. The plan was to at a later date, do a tilt bed with the batteries all mounted properly between the frame rails, out of sight and down lower for a better CG. It was a fun little truck that one late night on the freeway, handily smoked a 5 ohh Mustang at 80+ mph to 100 or so. I enjoyed the truck for a couple of years, then reluctantly sold it to me friend John Tuss. The truck is still available for viewing at the EV Photo Album, and though he no longer owns it, is still listed as John Tuss’ truck:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/039.html

Fast forward….several months ago, after 4+ years of simply driving this tough little EV as his daily machine, John sold the truck to friend Marko Mongillo of Fiamp fame (Marko’s Fiat 600 sedan also listed at the EV Photo Album). John’s a very nice guy but is not totally into maintaining an EV. The little truck had problems under his care and when two batteries failed (blew up from cell reversal)…he simply dropped it to a 168V truck and kept on driving. John drove the pickup way under its capabilities performance wise, driving as if he had an egg under his foot at all times (his normal mode of driving anything), so he noticed little difference at the reduced pack voltage. The pack never received regulators and pretty much was never equalized in any way. He simply charged it and drove it, day by day, until its range fell lower and lower.

Marko, with a little help from yours truly, has other plans now that he’s the new owner. I handed him 276V worth of brand new Exide Orbitals for the project. The past month or so we’ve been re-converting this nice little truck. Marko out-did his metalworking capabilities and made awesome stainless steel between-the-frame-rail battery boxes that somehow, hold all 23 batteries beneath the bed where they are out of sight. The truck looks like a stock, lowered minitruck with a fully functional bed again….nice! I’ve done all the high current wiring. Jim Husted just put some love on Marko’s motor:

Being that the High Voltage Nationals are only a month away….Thursday consisted of tearing into multiple motors and a lot of prep work…Added was a need to get Marko his motor as he also intends to bring out to Joliet this May.

Ah Jim, you’re letting the cat out of the bag! Oh well, time to let everyone know what we’re up to

I had just returned from central Oregon earlier this week, and as Jim posted, met up with Father Time and Jim on my way through Redmond back to Portland over yummy Chinese food. This past weekend as we had all planned, Father Time came back through town with Marko’s motor in tow. Madman Rudman too, was passing through on his way to Newberg, OR to have Easter with his folks. On a previous trip to Jim’s motor shop, I had picked up the Husetedized front motor from Gone Postal and brought it back to my place, as a service to Rod Wilde. You see, we Pacific Northwest EVers tend to help each other out every chance we get. Why pay hundreds of dollars in shipping costs sending 150+ lbs. of motor the 450 miles or so back and forth between Port Townsend, WA to Redmond, OR, when you can piggy back the thing with your EV buddies? Why should Marko pay to ship a heavy motor from Portland to Redmond and back (300 miles), when John the forklift guy goes back and forth that way all the time? As the commercial says ‘It’s the network’. The circle was complete for Rod’s motor, when Rudman was passing through Portland for the holiday with his family, a guy who lives in Kingston across the woods from Rod’s hometown of Port Townsend. As a sidebar…I could have done an even sweeter motor hand-off, as Tim ‘Electric Monkey’ Brehm left on Friday for a weekend with his mom up in Port Townsend! He wanted to hook up with Crazy Rod Wilde while he was up there, and I could have simply handed Rod’s motor to him and he could have delivered it in person. Oh well, Friday was a hectic forklift wrenching day for me, and quite frankly, I forgot all about asking Tim to take Rod’s motor up there, but with Rudman passing through right on schedule, it wasn’t a big deal.

So here we all were, meeting up at Summit Sheet Metal…Father Time, Madman Rudman, Plasma Boy, and Marko Mongillo.
More from Jim:

I’d really like to stress here that there are some folks out west that are really pushing to ready their EV’s for the May Illinois race and for any of you who might be teetering on the fence to make the effort and attend.  Wayland I know has never been that far east with WZ, and I know EVeryone here is pumped about the Event!
Here’s the deal. Marko is planning a major cross-country trip in Baby Blue. The plan is to have the pickup all finished in time for a car show Tim, he, and I are part of at Mt. Hood Community College on May 5th. For the trip eastward, we’ll place my 10 kw generator in the bed of Baby Blue, along with a PFC 50 charger… a series hybrid for level ground cruising, and relying on stout battery power for climbing the Rockies. With all the recent talk here on EVDL about generators and all, this is a pretty timely project, don’t you think?

From David Roden:

When you add a genset, you have a series hybrid.  The energy conversions involved make it a real challenge to attain high fuel efficiency using this scheme.  It’s not impossible, but a garden variety consumer genset - intended to supply backup power for a few hours during a grid failure - is probably not going to get anywhere close…

Good points, David. We’d certainly like to have a beefier unit, say a 15 kw model, but we have to use what we have available, so we’re cutting it thin with the 10 kw unit I have. To reduce rolling resistance and minimize cruise current needed, we’re going through the entire truck’s rolling gear and have already found thick, sticky grease caked in the rear axle instead of slippery thin gear oil…yikes! The rear axle is getting a thorough cleaning, all new bearings, and thin but effective gear oil. The front hubs and bearings are also getting the work-over with new bearings and all. The front end will be aligned. Finally, thinner high pressure (lower rolling resistance) truck radials similar to the kind Dick Finley and I used on Red Beastie, will replace the low profile, fat street rod tires that don’t roll so well right now. When done, I expect the 276V truck will use about 35 amps (with the 250 lb. generator in back) to cruise at 60 mph or so.

To plan for the worse, Rudman is allowing us to bring his T-Rex as a drop-in backup controller, and I’ll have my spank’n new PFC50X, my experimental 75+ amp charger the Madman and Smalley have been tweaking for me, as a backup to the PFC50 we’ll be using. It should be quite an eventful trek for Marko and his tough Datsun pickup. It will be fun to see how well the truck can pull the steep mountain grades we’ll encounter.

Once we’re at our destination, the exciting electric races in Joliet, Il, while Tim Brehm handles driving White Zombie, I’ll have fun running Marko’s Baby Blue down the track. No, we don’t expect it to set any new records, but having yet another EV to actually race on the track will add to the excitement of the races.

I’ll be posting pictures of the reconversion process to the Plasma Boy website soon.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

Doesn’t the CVT version get lower gas mileage than the standard?

If so, why would you want to use something that lowers your fuel efficiency?

Peter, I’m disappointed, as it appears you must have hit the ‘delete’ key and not read my many posts about this topic over the past couple of years   The CVT has nothing to do with the drop in mileage of the Insight equipped with it.

To recap….At the time Honda and Toyota were introducing the hybrids to the US market, they were in very stiff competition with each other over the new idea of mass marketed hybrids:

(1) Honda caught Toyota with their pants down, big time (even Toyota admits this) when they brought the Insight to the US market a full year ahead of the Prius (even though Prius was marketed elsewhere at the time). Only available as a 5 speed manual at first, the Insight achieved a ULEV status while also getting a staggering 70 mpg EPA rating! The 5 speed Insight uses lots of tricks to achieve super high, previously un-heard of mpg levels including its all aluminum body, super aero shape, its lowered stance, and of course, the whole hybrid-electric assist thing, but it also employs a special lean burn ultra light weight (124 lbs.) 3 banger engine that helps it achieve this mpg (my personal 5 speed Insight logs 90+ mpg easily at 62 mph constant speed and gets in the 80 mpg range without any special effort). Using lean burn though, makes it hard to control NOx emissions, thus the ULEV instead of SULEV rating.

(2) To trump Honda, when Toyota finally got around to introducing the US to the Prius, though its mileage was nowhere close to the two seater all aluminum Insight, it did seat four and was still able to get in the 55-60 mpg range while boasting a cleaner SULEV rating. Though actually transmission-less, the Prius’ automatic nature of its drive train (no shifting required) made it unpopular to those who prefer to shift, but very popular for those who prefer automatic trannys.

(3) To fight back, Honda introduced the CVT option for the Insight (and the Hybrid Civic). To match the Prius’ automatic nature, Honda also had it now with the CVT, and to match the SULEV rating, Honda dropped the lean burn capability on only the CVT model Insight. They ended up with the SULEV rating they wanted, but the car’s stellar 70 mpg EPA rating fell to 56 mpg. Many who don’t know this stuff, explain away the drop in mileage as being the fault of the CVT. In reality, the CVT Honda uses is as efficient (perhaps even more efficient) as the 5 speed…it’s the lack of lean burn mode that made the mileage plummet to the level of the Prius.

There are things one can do to keep their 5 speed Insight to keep it from shifting into its lean burn mode while driving, and when you do so, the 5 speed Insight gets pretty much identical mileage to its brother the CVT Insight. In terms of acceleration power, the CVT Insight is a dead match to the 5 speed Insight, so kudos to the efficiency thing for the CVT….it doesn’t rob the car of acceleration power at all.

For a time, I owned two Insights at the same time, my silver 2000 5 speed and a red 2001 CVT:

(1)  In my 5 speed, as you get up to cruising speed and slightly let off the gas to level your speed off, there’s a cool feeling you get as you watch the informative dash display and see the instantaneous mpg readout flutter at around 65-70 mpg, then suddenly it pops up to 90-110 mpg as you also feel a bit of a floating-like push of the car as its high tech 3 banger makes the hyper mileage jump into lean burn…very cool, very entertaining, and something all of us talk about that are fortunate enough to own one of these amazing machines. Then as road terrain goes up and down slightly, instead of the mpg going up and down, you see the dash indicator for the electric motor assist coming and going as it fills in the voids where, because of the lean burn’s lack of torque, the engine needs a little help…again, very cool and fun.

(2) In my CVT Insight, as you got up to cruising speed and slightly let off the gas to level your speed off, that cool feeling I get with my lean burn car is gone, and the instantaneous mpg readout just continues to flutter at around 65-70 mpg, never popping up to 90-110 mpg level, and that cool floating-like push of the car at the hyper mileage jump into lean burn never happens   As road terrain goes up and down slightly, you still see the dash indicator for the electric motor assist coming and going to help out, but not nearly as often because the 3 banger is in a more normal fuel-air ratio so torque is improved slightly, and, the CVT does an excellent job of keeping the ICE in its sweet spot. As a side bar, I was never, ever able to even get close to the same gas mileage as my 5 speed Insight, but I was able to hit 72 mpg on one 200 mile trip. On that same trip where my wife was following me in the 5 speed car, she got 86 mpg.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to Damon and All,

damon henry wrote:

Well, I have to admit I did not know that (I quit following the Honda Hybrid list a few years ago)

You don’t have to follow the Honda Hybrid list, all you have to do is stay current with regular car magazines. Pretty much all of them have featured the latest improvements and changes of the new hybrids. The big news is that Honda’s latest version of the Civic Hybrid can run a few miles on electric power only, just like the Prius does. Compared to Toyota’s complex trio of an electric motor-generator, a generator, and an ICE all coupled together via sun-planetary gears, Honda gets it done in a far simpler, more elegant way with their IMA system (integrated motor assist) with just the one motor-generator (less than 3 inches thick) sandwiched between the tranny and the flywheel and sharing the ICE crankshaft…no extra gears, no convoluted electrical-mechanical swapping of power and loads.

>…but in my defense the particular engine being sold appears to be from an 05 Civic

That’s why I qualified that my comments were for the new 2006 model.

See Ya…John Wayland

Hello to All,

damon henry wrote:

Yes, the only time the Honda system moves with the gas motor turned off is if gravity and/or momentum are on your side.  The electric drive will not work without the ICE running.

From: cowtown@spamcop.net

I know the Toyota setup uses a separate motor, but doesn’t the Honda “IMA”
system have to have the engine running to use electric drive?

Damon, you disappoint me   You need to get up to speed, dude! The 2006 Honda hybrids will in fact, run on battery power alone. They do it, just the way I predicted they would 5 years ago. They close the valves in the engine, cut off the injectors, and let the stuff all spin along with the electric motor. Having all the valves closed amounts to the same thing as having them all open, in that there is very little drag against the electric motor, probably not any more drag than the Prius’ drag caused by the planetary arrangement they use.

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Just wanted to remind everyone who receives the Discovery channel, that our own Rich Rudman and Shawn Lawless will be on TV tonight on the Monster Garage show. Should be a hoot! My local TV listing has it on at 8:00 pm west coast time.

I met the guy who does the voice over for the show while we had White Zombie on display at the Rod & Custom show this past February. He was excited to tell me that he was scheduled to do his part for the show the following Monday. He was pretty pumped up over doing this episode, and told me seeing White Zombie and the drag racing videos of it jerking the tires off the ground and blowing off muscle cars took him by surprise. I think we helped prime the pump for him to be really excited about the electric Chevy Rich and Shawn helped build.

See Ya…..John ‘Monster Garage rejectee’ Wayland

Hello Osmo and All,

Osmo S. wrote:

DC vs AC … what about sepex, PM, BLDC and whatnot. Do they all belong in the category of DC? Or does DC stand for a brushed series wound motor only. If so, why aren´t the others hardly ever discussed in this group?

When talking EV sized brushed wound field type motors, it is generally assumed that they are series-wound types. They don’t have to be, they could also be shunt wound, sepex, or PM types.

BLDC (brushless DC) motors are as complicated to control as AC motors are, in that they require an inverter or they cannot run. A BLDC is really an AC motor who’s inverter is generally built into the motor case. It’s an AC motor that has no brushes but you feed it raw DC power…hence brushless DC.  Once the power gets into the motor it’s routed through an inverter that converts it to three phase AC. Most are synchronous types where the rotor is a permanent magnet, so they have different characteristics compared to induction type AC motors. Today’s BLDC motors have changed and many now have three feed wires that get power from an external inverter. To me, I call this an AC motor, but the companies that build these still insist on calling them BLDC….go figure! In a nutshell, a BLDC motor is essentially an AC motor, thus an EV BLDC system with EV levels of power have the same high cost as the induction type AC systems. Unique Mobility makes EV sized BLDC systems, but I think they’re priced in the $20k range. I rode in a Humvee powered by four Unique Mobility 100 hp BLDC motors, it was incredible! At $20k, you can see why we don’t talk much about them or use them often.

On a much, much smaller scale, I do own an EV that’s powered by a BLDC motor, it’s my very early model Curie board scooter. When other scooters of the period (pre-2000) were still stuck in 12V land, had a PM motor that ran at 57% efficiency with a binary controller (an on-off switch) and used a friction drive or belt drive, this one ran at 24V, had a chain drive, and employed Curie’s own design BLDC motor at about 95% efficiency with variable throttle control due to the built-in inverter-controller on the backside of the motor. Scooters back then were rated at 15 miles range per charge, but in reality got about 6-7 miles before needing a recharge. My Curie was rated at 12 miles per charge and easily did it. It was also way faster on top end, and off throttle it coasts forever so you only need to blip the throttle once in a while to cruise along. After a few mile son a regular PM 12V scooter, the motor got very hot to the touch, but the Curie BLDC feels barely warm. Today, I have five board type scooters, but my favorite is still my original Curie with its BLDC motor. I just bought a new 36V Curie that has a real disc brake, and full suspension and all, but the disappointing factor is its PM brushed motor. It even has the warning ‘Caution, motor gets hot!’ I assumed when I ordered this scooter, it would be an upgraded version of my trusty Curie …not!

As to sepex and PM, yes, these are considered to be good ‘ol DC motors. There aren’t many large PM motors readily available in road going EV sizes, and a PM of this size would not have the ultimate low end torque of a series wound type, thus, they are not popular. Sepex are also, not readily available and they require more complicated controllers. Randy Holmquist of Canadian EV has rewound Kostovs that are turned into sepex types. Jim Husted could also turn any motor into a sepex type. Sepex have really taken over in the forklift industry and with gear ratios changed to improve low end torque making them on par with series wound types, they work very well, with the added plus of very controllable regen.

Hope this helps…

See Ya….John Wayland

Hello to All,

Mike Phillips wrote:

The biggest thing that bugs me about most DC systems is the huge
amount of current the battery’s have to supply just to leave a stop
light. That’s hard on everything involved.

Huge amount of current just to leave a stop light? Where do you get that from? The average 144V-192V DC systems do not have to use ‘huge currents’ just to leave a stop light. My 156V car takes just 50-100 amps to leave a stop light at speeds matching traffic flow. In order to match the not-too-exciting 100 kw AC system’s ‘maximum’ leave the stop light capability, it still only takes about 300 hundred amps through a transmission, something most everyone uses with these DC systems. The huge currents (really not all that huge) only come into play when one wishes to demonstrate the 144V-192V DC system’s 6-7 second 0-60 acceleration capabilities, such as when wanting to dust off one of those lower powered 100 kw AC systems   Using quality AGM batteries (wimpy gel cells need not apply) like Optimas, Hawkers, or Orbitals, the high currents are not a problem at all, in fact, these tough batteries seem to thrive under such treatment…witness my Optimas that finally died after 6.5 years of nearly constant high current acceleration blasts! Witness the Exide Orbitals that never, ever failed under repeated 1/4 mile drag strip runs. Witness the Hawkers in White Zombie that never, ever failed throughout the 2005 racing season.

With most AC systems you
need higher voltage to get the watts up, but the battery pull 500 amps
max on the high powered systems I am familiar with. Many limit to 200
amps. That makes battery and interconnect choices easier.

You can get the exact same results in a high voltage DC system, so I find this comparison you’ve made interesting, because it’s an apples to oranges thing. High voltage AC to low voltage DC? If you want the low current battery thing you ’seem’ to be saying is the AC’s advantage, then simply run a high voltage DC system….you know, apples to apples.

In White Zombie, at 348V, it only takes about 50 amps from the battery pack to accelerate as a normal car does in average street driving, and it takes a whopping 20-25 amps to cruise at 55-60 mph. Driving as if I were in a 96V Rabbit or a Solectria Geo Metro, the car uses about 40 amps from the batteries to accelerate up to speed. The difference of course, is that my high power DC setup gives me the option of pulling 1000 amps from the high voltage pack (if I so deem it necessary and have it programmed the max battery amps this way) for extreme acceleration, something the 100 kw AC system you are comparing to, cannot remotely achieve.

The beauty of the 144V-192V DC systems is that you can afford these, they give superior acceleration when compared to the 100 kw AC systems that are double the cost, and using quality AGM style batteries, in particular the three brands I’ve mentioned that have a proven track record (pun intended), there really are no cabling or connector issues.

The only AC failure I’ve ever known was when the 12v accessory battery
got hooked up backwards

The AC powered S-10 (Hughes Dolphin 50 kw) I had in my possession years ago failed, big time. The repair would have been so expensive that the truck was salvaged by the owners instead of being repaired. A DC truck would have been back on the road at minimal cost. The AC systems Victor (Metric Mind) sells have a very good reliability record.

It seems odd that you would favor an AC system at twice the cost, twice…because it ‘bugs you’ to pull high amps from a battery pack, when a DC system at the same voltage does the same thing while also giving you far more available power at far less dollars.

See Ya……John Wayland

Hello to All,

Michaela Merz wrote:

Hmm .. I think we all agree that a blown DC controller can cause some
problems. What about doing something about it? …a secondary system monitoring motor voltage and shut the system down if something seems to be wrong?….a way (for an electronic circuit) to know the difference
between a PCM signal and a constant DC on the motor? It could trigger the
mains before the driver knows that the controller went south….ways to detect this kind of dangerous conditions and to prevent a ‘runaway’ car

It’s already been done…it’s called a Zilla with Hairball.

All Zillas are controlled by the Hairball interface. First and foremost, Cafe Electric builds the most reliable DC power stage ever, period! His power stages simply don’t blow, that in itself is amazing, but when you consider the very high up-to 2000 amp currents (even the ’small’ one kicks out 1000 amps!) and the industry leading up-to-348 volts and they still don’t blow, is incredible! Lesser controllers have a hard enough time managing 500 amps and 156 volts The Zilla controllers power the worlds quickest electric drag cars, and don’t blow even under these extremes.

I’ve got credibility here and have ‘been there, done that’ in regards to blowing things up. The 5300 lb. Red Beastie electric Toyota truck Dick Finley and I put together was the ultimate test bed for seeing how robust controllers were. With a 2500 lb. battery pack capable of running the truck for hours on end at high average currents and at very high currents during hill climbing events, it ate 6, count ‘em, 6 controllers! Having been involved in too many conversions to list over my 26 years of EVing, I’ve blown up more controllers than most, believe me. I think my ‘We blow things up, so you don’t have to’ mantra was part of Otmar’s inspiration to make his Zilla line of controllers bullet proof (or would that be plasma proof?). The original Godzilla controller used to set world records in White Zombie never failed, ever. It lived through everything I threw at it, including the melt-down of the armature in the 11 inch Kostov under full power. It’s still in perfect condition and awaits its new owner (I’ll let him tell everyone when he’s ready).

In the very unlikely event of a Zilla power stage failure, the Hairball instantly drops out the contactors, and in many circumstances, it will sense a problem ‘before’ the power stage can blow and not allow any contactors to pull in.  Old fashioned Curtis controllers don’t have this feature, nor do many other old tech designs. I was at Oat’s side when he was first working on the Hairball interface, and even gave him my input on his ideas for its features and multitude of protection circuits…even threw some of my own ideas at him   The prototype interface was a mess of tangled wires strewn all over the place as he was first conceiving the idea, looking very much like what the cat coughs up…hence, Hairball.

DC controllers ‘can’ be every bit as safe and automatic in their control systems as any AC system, the Hairball/Zilla combo is proof.

See Ya…..John Wayland

Zilla biased (for good reasons) and sponsored by Cafe Electric

Hello to All,

I always enjoy the AC vs DC debate. One point very rarely brought up though, is what you get in terms of performance in return for your dollars invested, especially when the price of the AC system hovers in the $8000-$10,000 range. Yes, a  68 kw AC system can be had for about $6000, but that’s on the low side of power for a conversion and is more comparable in power to older tech 120V DC systems. To get up to the power level of today’s common 144V-156V DC systems being used that easily top 100 kw, the AC system will cost you closer to $8000.  For $8000-$10,000, you get an AC system with about 100-130 kw of power. For the same dollars for DC….listen up newbies and pro AC folks,  you get up to 600 kw!!!! I’m talking about raw power that can be easily had with a Zilla Z2K, stout AGM batteries, and either one BIG DC motor or a pair of DC motors.  Now, in real life, due to the fact that batteries sag under high current loads, no one that I know presently has actually gotten their 600 kw of power delivered in their EV, but I do know that 350 kw has been had We’re talking about THREE times the power for the same price…I’ll repeat….THREE times the power for the same price! Not just two times the power, THREE times the power!

From Metric Mind’s web page, specialists on AC systems (good folks to do business with) comes this statement:
>Zilla 2K comes to mind….with a DC motor becomes $6100, just $800 less than a complete AC solution (100 kw).

It goes on to admit that even the Z1K at half the power of the Z2K still has more power than this AC system, but the power level thing is down-played. The problem I have is where the Z2K, a 600 kw system is compared to the 100 kw AC system, where this part is left out…..The Z2K Zilla package delivers SIX times the power for the same price (if a powerful enough battery pack is used) and in practical terms, it delivers THREE times the power!

A nice 100-130 kw AC system ‘can’ match the power delivery of the average gas car, but so can an affordable 100-130 kw DC system.
The big difference in this power range, is that a simple pack of just 13 AGM 12V batteries (156V) and a Zilla Z1K will easily make 130 kw of delivered power. Here’s the approximate cost to do this….$2000 for the Z1K LV model, $1450 for 13 Optimas or Orbitals, and $1600 for a 9 inch DC motor, for a total 130 kw package of $5050. A 100-130 kw AC system will cost you about $7000, but to run it to the power level of around 100 kw, you need a 300V battery pack. That pack will cost twice as much as the 156V pack for the DC system, even if you run smaller AGM batteries so that the overall pack weight is the same (same approx. range) as the 13-battery DC pack. So, for $7000 for the inverter-motor combo and $2800 of batteries you are up to $9800! We’re looking at twice the cost for the same level of performance. When using battery management modules, the cost of these is doubled with the 300+V AC system, too.

Am I dissing AC? Of course not. I love AC. My Insight has it, many of the forklifts I work on have it, and one of my favorite EVs I’ve driven, the EV1 had it. From time to time, I think about converting Blue Meanie to a 130 kw AC system. After all, I already have a really fast DC Datsun 1200, why not have a little regen fun and do the other 1200 as an AC system? The only problem I have is price for what you get in return. With similar weight lead acid battery packs, I’ll pit my DC powered car to ‘any’ AC powered car in terms of range per charge, 0-60 acceleration, top speed, and over-all fun factor. On the other hand, a direct drive AC Blue Meanie with a higher tech battery pack is a fun concept.

From time to time, I get to hang out with Victor (Metric Mind). A few weeks ago, he and I got together at his place. I found myself smiling at his latest AC system with a very compact inverter module and a motor that was, well, more ‘motor-like’ than some of his other square AC motors. It screamed ‘Blue Meanie’ at me. I also nearly tripped over stacks of Ovonic NiMH batteries, the same models that were  used in the EV1 I drove for 140 miles per charge years ago! I was thinking a set of them and that nifty compact AC system would turn Blue Meanie into a 150 mile per charge machine, while still maintaining ‘respectable’ performance. Alas…..it would cost about $10,000 to get these toys.

For now, I’ll be putting a pack of Hawkers into Blue Meanie to get it back to snuff (the 6.5 year old Optimas are finally ready to be recycled). Until I take the AC plunge, I guess I’ll have to settle for 0-60 in six seconds, a 120+ mph top speed, and the ‘city driving only’ range of 25 miles per charge (unless I get some really new model Hawkers I’m not supposed to talk about yet).

Kudos to Victor for helping to make AC systems available to backyard converters. It’s great to have these systems available at more reasonable prices than the $20-$30k systems of the late 90’s!

See Ya…..John Wayland

Hello to All,

Electro Automotive wrote:

We don’t recommend less than 96V for a very basic street car, nor do we recommend above 144V on the 9″ motor.

I’ve run Blue Meanie’s ‘properly advance timed’ ADC 9 inch motor at 156V for I think, 10 years now. Not a single motor problem, and the original brushes are at around 75% still. Many others, like John Bryan and his 192V Ghia with its XP super torque’n 8 inch ADC motor, have also not had any problems at all….nor has Bill Dube’s 192V Wabbit…this list could go on and on.
>Your privilege.  But I sell these and have to warranty them.  I want the factory backing >me up.
Shari, perhaps you are unaware, that  ADC left Corbin hanging when their 8 inch motors all started to burn up, due to how they shipped them at neutral timing, then didn’t back their product up. They immediately blamed everyone else, including the controller designers who’s output stages toasted when the motor arced to death. Funny thing (just using your own words, Shari)…when the owners of Corbin Sparrows advanced the timing, magically, all their motor and controller problems vanished. Damon Crocket’s DC Power Systems left the road going EV market over the Corbin fiasco after losing lots of money trying to do the right thing by warranting their Raptor 450 controllers that were burning up due to ADC’s improperly-timed motors that were fire-balling.

I have this funny idea of knowing the manufacturer (ADC) isn’t smart enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees so that their motors will run properly for the market they sell them for…EVs.

>I would love to see you tell Gary Dieroff to his face that he isn’t smart enough to build >a motor properly.
Shari, please at least quote me accurately. I said “(ADC) isn’t smart enough to advance the timing to 10-12 degrees” I never said they weren’t smart enough to build a motor properly. They once did ship them properly timed, then, when Gary was less involved in the whole EV motor business, they without warning anyone, began shipping motors timed at neutral without the ability to change timing holes. Actually, I’d love to talk again with Gary. I’ve talked with him face to face before, and had no problems talking straight talk with him. He’d more than likely want my input, as he did back in ‘96 when he was amazed at the power I was extracting from his 9 inch motor back then. We talked for some time track side, about proper motor timing and how the ADC 9 inch had the ability to run at higher voltages when properly timed.  I doubt you ever have similar ‘high performance’ conversations with him over 96V conversions, though

Can you say Corbin Sparrow?

That’s Corbin’s problem, not ADCs.  The Sparrow had problems with several drive systems.
Shari, you need to get your information correct before presenting it as fact. The Corbin Sparrows had drive problems ’specifically’ with every motor controller they used, until motor timing was corrected that stopped arcing. ADC was silent about their culpability in this. I had to personally drill and tap a Sparrow motor for a friend who had one to advance the timing. Guess what? After the mods were done, the car stopped blowing controllers due to arcing caused by ADC’s motors they sold that were shipped at neutral timing! The car also accelerated far better, too.

Add in the fact that most of the Electro Automotive designs feature very heavy conversions with lower than average power, and you are asking the motor to work under even more duress. Most of the Electro Automotive designs use the squealing Curtis controller

Here we go again.  I’ve never heard the Curtis squeal except backing out of a parking space, when it serves nicely as a pedestrian warning.  In forward motion, I accelerate through that low speed squeal too quickly to notice it.
Perhaps your hearing is impaired? Review the EVDL archives of all the complaints from EVers, especially those who were embarrassed at parade events, EV car shows, etc. over comments about the noise their Curtis powered EVs made.

(Yes, even in my pitiful low voltage, low current car, I can accelerate that quickly!)

Prove that,  please. Please show data on the 0-60 of your 96V Rabbit conversion. At the sagged voltage under the 500 amps that squealer makes, you’ve got 40 hp to move 2900 lbs…..yeah, I bet it really hauls! I’d bet you’ve never, ever, drag raced it on a track with real timing devices. I’ll help you out here… My guess, is that it would have a 2.5 second 60 ft., that the 0-60 would take 17-19 seconds, and that top speed on level ground might be a real 85 mph, given several miles to get there.

And as for low performance, I have more often been held back in a 96V Rabbit by slow gas cars than vice verse. I have even passed gas cars going uphill….Sweeping generalizations about “most people” are usually misleading.

And you talk about sweeping, generalized statements? This hardly backs up your talk. Try hard facts, please. Try it like this….

The stock 1981 Rabbit weighs 1775 lbs., has 74 hp, and takes 12.6 l-o-n-g seconds to get to 60 mph. In today’s terms when the average economy car does the 0-60 run in 8-9 seconds (even the squeaky clean running 70+ mpg Honda Insight does it in 10.4 seconds), a 13 second 0-60 time is considered s-l-o-w! Keep in mind, this is for